The Palestine Papers

[Tangled up in Blue]

Sorry, but coming hot on the heels of yesterday's "independent" enquiry into the Gaza cargoships fiasco, Israel doesn't exactly come out of Wikileaks covered in glory either.

http://gu.com/p/2mt3q

 

[canveyshrimper]

Neither did Arafat when he reneged on the Camp David agreement.

 

[londonblue]

Not sure they're accurate:

BBC

The BBC has been unable to verify the documents independently.

Mr Abas

"What is intended is a mix-up. I have seen them yesterday present things as Palestinian but they were Israeli... this is therefore intentional," he said in Cairo, in remarks quoted by Reuters news agency.

 

[canveyshrimper]

So if Mr Abas is to be believed then Israel may well deserve some credit.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Neither did Arafat when he reneged on the Camp David agreement.

If you've read the article it clearly indicates concessions that Arafat made.

 

[canveyshrimper]

If you've read the article it clearly indicates concessions that Arafat made.

Indeed, but it doesn't mention that Arafat clearly reneged on the deal brokered by Clinton, thereby condemning the Palestinians to even more privations while he lived a life of luxury in Tunis, occasionally turning up in Gaza for an appropriate phot shoot to show off the latest Israeli "atrocity".

 

[londonblue]

Indeed, but it doesn't mention that Arafat clearly reneged on the deal brokered by Clinton, thereby condemning the Palestinians to even more privations while he lived a life of luxury in Tunis, occasionally turning up in Gaza for an appropriate phot shoot to show off the latest Israeli "atrocity".

Arafat's problem was one of managing expectations. We all know about his hypocrisy with regards to what language he spoke in. We know that in English he was all for peace, but in Arabic he was still promising to wipe Israel from the map. We all know that his state sponsored TV stations showed nothing but Israeli violence towards Palestinians so that his people would never really trust Israel. We also know that his schools had maps of the world that didn't include Israel. It is this that, IMO, led to him walking away from a deal. He promised the Palestinians everything, and when he had a deal that only gave them 99% of what they wanted, he knew he couldn't go through with it without making himself look weak given his previous rhetoric. Even the rest of the Arab world were annoyed that he walked away.

 

[Smudger]

Arafat's problem was one of managing expectations. We all know about his hypocrisy with regards to what language he spoke in. We know that in English he was all for peace, but in Arabic he was still promising to wipe Israel from the map. We all know that his state sponsored TV stations showed nothing but Israeli violence towards Palestinians so that his people would never really trust Israel. We also know that his schools had maps of the world that didn't include Israel. It is this that, IMO, led to him walking away from a deal. He promised the Palestinians everything, and when he had a deal that only gave them 99% of what they wanted, he knew he couldn't go through with it without making himself look weak given his previous rhetoric. Even the rest of the Arab world were annoyed that he walked away.

I live in "the Arab world" and you won't find a single map in this whole region with Israel on it - fact. That's not an Arafat thing that's a Middle East thing. I guess when you steal half your land, then play for time pretending to negotiate, all the while building on that land as quickly as possible, it's a bit rich to try and take the moral high ground about a map. As the bigger and stronger of the two, Israel has no need to negotiate, not while it has the US on it's side and an enemy that is quite literally penned in at all sides. The recent bombardment of trapped Gazans with amongst other things, white phosphorous bombs (a nice cowardly touch that) was played out on television day after shocking day, dead children filling the airwaves. I was in Abu Dhabi at the time where every cafe, municipal building has 24 hour news playing - it was horrific and I still shudder at the thought of what I saw. I don't expect the BBC showed the same live images of fathers carrying their dead, dismembered children into hospitals, screaming at the top of their lungs. Children that look like the kids who played with my kids, children who died before they even knew they were Palestinian. So these days, I don't have too much of a problem with Israel not being on a map - I have a giant map in my office of this region and it's missing - no plans here to stencil it in.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I live in "the Arab world" and you won't find a single map in this whole region with Israel on it - fact. That's not an Arafat thing that's a Middle East thing. I guess when you steal half your land, then play for time pretending to negotiate, all the while building on that land as quickly as possible, it's a bit rich to try and take the moral high ground about a map. As the bigger and stronger of the two, Israel has no need to negotiate, not while it has the US on it's side and an enemy that is quite literally penned in at all sides. The recent bombardment of trapped Gazans with amongst other things, white phosphorous bombs (a nice cowardly touch that) was played out on television day after shocking day, dead children filling the airwaves. I was in Abu Dhabi at the time where every cafe, municipal building has 24 hour news playing - it was horrific and I still shudder at the thought of what I saw. I don't expect the BBC showed the same live images of fathers carrying their dead, dismembered children into hospitals, screaming at the top of their lungs. Children that look like the kids who played with my kids, children who died before they even knew they were Palestinian. So these days, I don't have too much of a problem with Israel not being on a map - I have a giant map in my office of this region and it's missing - no plans here to stencil it in.

Suprised there's no coment on this from Rusty(or London Blue).

 

[londonblue]

I live in "the Arab world" and you won't find a single map in this whole region with Israel on it - fact. That's not an Arafat thing that's a Middle East thing.

But these other countries weren't pretending to want peace with Israel. How can you really want peace if you don't even acknowledge the existence of the country you want peace with?

I guess when you steal half your land, then play for time pretending to negotiate, all the while building on that land as quickly as possible, it's a bit rich to try and take the moral high ground about a map.

This might come as a surprise to you, but I don't condone building illegal settlements. Regardless of anything else, they just muddy the waters when it comes to negotiating a peace settlement. However, to say that Israel is building as quickly as it can is an exaggeration. Even I could build quicker than them! And don't forget a lot of this building has taken place since Arafat walked away. Had he signed the treaty this wouldn't be an issue.

As the bigger and stronger of the two, Israel has no need to negotiate, not while it has the US on it's side and an enemy that is quite literally penned in at all sides.

I think you need to go and find a map with Israel on it :winking: if you think it is bigger than the entire Arab world who are financially supporting all the terrorist organisations that continually attack Israel. I think you'll then also see that it is Israel that is penned in on all sides.

The recent bombardment of trapped Gazans with amongst other things, white phosphorous bombs (a nice cowardly touch that) was played out on television day after shocking day, dead children filling the airwaves. I was in Abu Dhabi at the time where every cafe, municipal building has 24 hour news playing - it was horrific and I still shudder at the thought of what I saw. I don't expect the BBC showed the same live images of fathers carrying their dead, dismembered children into hospitals, screaming at the top of their lungs. Children that look like the kids who played with my kids, children who died before they even knew they were Palestinian. So these days, I don't have too much of a problem with Israel not being on a map - I have a giant map in my office of this region and it's missing - no plans here to stencil it in.

You won't find me supporting the use of Illegal weapons by anybody anywhere in the world.

 

[londonblue]

Suprised there's no coment on this from Rusty(or London Blue).

Sorry, hadn't seen it!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Sorry, hadn't seen it!

Thought not.That's why I bumped it.(Rusty seems to be in some sort of exile).
BTW would you approve of a return to the 67 borders?(And if not,why not)?
IMO, that seems to be the only realistic hope of getting the roadmap back in business again.

 

[Smudger]

I think you need to go and find a map with Israel on it :winking: if you think it is bigger than the entire Arab world who are financially supporting all the terrorist organisations that continually attack Israel. I think you'll then also see that it is Israel that is penned in on all sides.

I agree that it's a hostile position for Israel and it has every right to defend itself but I think you need to go and find other ways to support your argument besides thinly veiled attempts at condescension :winking: When I said "penned in" I quite literally meant "penned in" as in unable to move freely, as in easy target to drop bombs on (even UN schools it seems.) If your enemy is surrpounded by fences and walls and you control where they move and what they have access to, I'd suggest you have the upper hand. The situation in Egypt (and it's potential to spread) is worrying and it may be that Israel has to cope with a new set of problems in the years ahead. If the leaked documents are to be taken as fact, it seems they played a waiting game in their negotiations. I hope they don't live to regret it as it seems now that this whole situation could have been resolved a long time ago.....

 

[canveyshrimper]

Thought not.That's why I bumped it.(Rusty seems to be in some sort of exile).
BTW would you approve of a return to the 67 borders?(And if not,why not)?
IMO, that seems to be the only realistic hope of getting the roadmap back in business again.

Apparently Netanyahu has said he'd give the Golan Heights back to Syria, but can't as they're in his wifes name. :winking:

Seriously Isreal aren't going to give up the Golan Heights, I guess it's possible they could make concessions on Sinai, and even Jerusalem, but Golan no chance.

I agree that it's a hostile position for Israel and it has every right to defend itself but I think you need to go and find other ways to support your argument besides thinly veiled attempts at condescension :winking: When I said "penned in" I quite literally meant "penned in" as in unable to move freely, as in easy target to drop bombs on (even UN schools it seems.) If your enemy is surrpounded by fences and walls and you control where they move and what they have access to, I'd suggest you have the upper hand. The situation in Egypt (and it's potential to spread) is worrying and it may be that Israel has to cope with a new set of problems in the years ahead. If the leaked documents are to be taken as fact, it seems they played a waiting game in their negotiations. I hope they don't live to regret it as it seems now that this whole situation could have been resolved a long time ago.....

Your first line is always part of my argument, if you acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, then Israel with enemies on all sides must have the right to defend itself. Again the unrest in Egypt and other Arab countries may only destabilise the situation further. While Mubarrak isn't a friend of Israel his Government have at least tried to live in some sort of peace with Israel, a peace which started over 30 years ago.

 

[MK Shrimper]

After watching Louis Thoreaux last week I doubt they'll ever be peace in that area, and all over some dusty old unbelievable fairy stories as well.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Apparently Netanyahu has said he'd give the Golan Heights back to Syria, but can't as they're in his wifes name. :winking:

Seriously Isreal aren't going to give up the Golan Heights, I guess it's possible they could make concessions on Sinai, and even Jerusalem, but Golan no chance.

I'm aware of their strategic importance eg for rocket launching but have you ever seen them?
Leigh Cliffs look more imposing.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I'm aware of their strategic importance eg for rocket launching but have you ever seen them?
Leigh Cliffs look more imposing.

Only from news reel, irrespective of how imposing they may or may not be, they are as you rightly say of strategic importance and there's no way Israel will give them up.

 

[londonblue]

I think you need to go and find other ways to support your argument besides thinly veiled attempts at condescension :winking:

In that case the intonation in my voice didn't come over in my written word. There was no attempt at condescension. If I wanted to be condescending I would try and hide it!

Don't forget, my original post was my opinion on why Arafat walked away from a very good deal. I wasn't talking about anything else.

 

[londonblue]

I'm aware of their strategic importance eg for rocket launching but have you ever seen them?
Leigh Cliffs look more imposing.

That's simply not true. They're beautiful(!), and more importantly they overlook the whole of Northern Israel. Incidentally, do you know how Israel managed to win them in the first place?

It's an amazing story, but an Israeli infiltrated, and managed to work his way up to become the number 2 in the Syrian army. He went to visit the soldiers who had dug trenches in the mountain tops and were ready to fire on Israel when the time came. He commented to them on how hot it was, and that there was no shade. He then ordered the delivery and planting of lots of Eucalyptus trees to shade the soldiers. When war eventually broke out the Israelis knew to fire at the trees and all the Syrian weapons would be blown up. Not only did that happen, but the soldiers that weren't blown up also deserted.

There's also no real reason why Israel should give them up. They were part of Syria and were won in a war that Israel didn't start. I bet the Syrians wouldn't give up the Golan for the Palestinians either. That said, if Israel could be 10000000% sure the Golan wouldn't be used to attack Israel (ever) then it seems a reasonable price to pay. I can't see Syria ever proving to Israel that it can be trusted though...