South Africa squads announced

[canveyshrimper]

No place for Ravi Bopara in either squad

I guess I am not too surprised that Ravi has been left out of the Test Squad, but a bit surprised he didn't make the one day side.

I'd also suggest this is the end of the road for Steve Harmison, with Plunkett coming back.

With my Essex bias I am still amazed the selectors can overlook James Foster, while I am not suggesting he should displace Matt Prior, who has improved greatly, he should be on this tour as number two. However Davies has got the gig, and I doubt very much if Foster will ever play for England again, a great shame for a player who most observers think is the best wicket keeper in the world.

There's some good selections in both squads with Rashid taking the place of Panesar, and Saj Mahmood coming back to the One Day side. I am a bit baffled about the selection of Luke Wright to the test squad, perhaps the selectors see a bit of Flintoff in him. And Pietersen is selected for both squads, despite a big question mark over his fitness.

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

Saj Mahmood is ****ing ****

IMO obviously

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

****, we're screwed when it doesn't swing.

Anderson, Sideshow and Plunkett?

That test squad is crying out for is a bit of pace and bounce in the test squad. If they don't want to go Harmison then they need to go for someone like Mahmood or Khan. Even if they are inconsistent, you can surely afford to carry a potential matchwinner in a 5 man attack - and they have nailed their colours to the 5 man bowling attack by picking Davies as reserve keeper. What you can't do is carry so many swing bowlers if it isn't swinging.

Luke Wright was a nailed on certainty for my Bangladesh test squad, not so sure about where he'd fit in in South Africa.

I'm opposed to Cook's inclusion in the one-day squad. Whilst I think he's good enough, I think he should be allowed to concentrate on test cricket rather than carry drinks in the one-dayers and you can't have him and Strauss opening the batting in the one-dayers and as appalling as Strauss' form has been in the one-dayers (although no-one will admit it, over the last 6 months he averages just 26.71 at an uninspiring strike-rate of 76.73) the captain isn't going to get dropped.

 

[The General]

I think as Cook is a future captain - then they want him involved as much as possible. Im shocked that Foster and/or Read weren't picked. Read's record this season has been superb. Think he hit 7 FC ton's!! His keeping obviously isn't as good as Fossie's, but if he'd been picked over Fossie, i could understand it a little more!

Kev

 

[Stats]

Davies in :)

Woohoo a Surrey player returns to the internation scene

 

[number11]

I think as Cook is a future captain - then they want him involved as much as possible. Im shocked that Foster and/or Read weren't picked. Read's record this season has been superb. Think he hit 7 FC ton's!! His keeping obviously isn't as good as Fossie's, but if he'd been picked over Fossie, i could understand it a little more!

Kev

Read missed the boat a couple of years ago. He has showed he just doesn't have it to play international cricket. He looks completely at sea with the bat and never overly impressed with the gloves (despite undoubtedly having a ton of ability). He is not as good as Foster with the gloves if we were looking for the best keeper, and is not as good as Prior, Ambrose and probably Foster with the bat, nor likely to be as good as Davies.

From a selfish Essex point of view Id rather Foster gets a nice rest before trying to keep us in the 1st Division next year, but as a fan of what he has done for Essex it is a shame for him that he hasnt had the international recognition his keeping deserves. I genuinly believe he is the best wicket keeper I have seen in all my cricket watching years (circa 89 onwards) (I was never overly impressed with Jack Russell), but he has suffered due to our lack of true (regularly fit) international class bowlers, meaning we have to try to fit in a 5th bowler.

Anyway on the squad....how the **** is that cretin Sidebottom getting into our test teams. Living on the back of reasonably productive series against New Zealand and W.Indies....is he actually any better than Alan Mullally was?

As YB said, if we are pinning hopes on a 5 man attack, surely the virtue of that attack is the variety you can put out. Harmison (or Mahmood) give that bit of something different, and if its not working for them they have the luxury of 4 other bowlers, which in turn should help them relax and mean there is more chance of it working out for them. Plunkett may deserve his chance but Id like that bit of extra pace on the bouncey tracks, and if its swinging, Anderson, Onions and Broad have that covered.

As for Ravi, shame he has been chopped and changed so often. Only at the beginning of this summer he and KP looked the only batsmen with a clue on hold to wield a bat. Has Denly done any better than Ravi would have?

In any event, I have a suspicion that Ravi will be called up for a non recovering KP.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I think as Cook is a future captain - then they want him involved as much as possible. Im shocked that Foster and/or Read weren't picked. Read's record this season has been superb. Think he hit 7 FC ton's!! His keeping obviously isn't as good as Fossie's, but if he'd been picked over Fossie, i could understand it a little more!

Kev

Read got 4 fc tons this year not 7! He still had a very good fc season with the bat (was I think 7th overall in the averages), and this was in division 1, but I'd back Foster to make more runs than him in the international arena and I wouldn't have Foster in my team.

Davies in :)

Woohoo a Surrey player returns to the internation scene

Can't understand why Davies is in the test squad rather than the one-day squad.

Friends who watch more county cricket than I do, rave about his keeping and not in a good way!

 

[number11]

Just read the actual squad list. How on Earth can the selectors justify slipping Bell back in and leaving out Ravi. Ravi had one poor series against the then highest ranked team, after he had been backed to the hilt and thrown into the troublesome number 3 position which Bell had failed to nail down in over 2 years of trying (over a longer period). He had some decent innings against Australia but again failed to get in when set. Actually just checked.....he averaged 28!!! For the previous two series he averaged 16.20!

Will Bopara and Bell be this generations Hick and Ramprakash?!

 

[canveyshrimper]

Davies in :)

Woohoo a Surrey player returns to the internation scene

Before he's played for Surrey as well.

While I can see the logic in selecting Rashid, he's likely to be carrying the drinks as Swann is the first choice spinner, and South Africa rarely offers up bunsens, which like as not is attributable to the dearth of Saffer spinners since Hugh Tayfield in the 50's.

I think that Cook (subject to his form in South Africa) will get the captaincy for the Bangladesh tour when England are likely to call up some players on the fringe like Denly, and you never know Foster.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Just read the actual squad list. How on Earth can the selectors justify slipping Bell back in and leaving out Ravi. Ravi had one poor series against the then highest ranked team, after he had been backed to the hilt and thrown into the troublesome number 3 position which Bell had failed to nail down in over 2 years of trying (over a longer period). He had some decent innings against Australia but again failed to get in when set. Actually just checked.....he averaged 28!!! For the previous two series he averaged 16.20!

Will Bopara and Bell be this generations Hick and Ramprakash?!

Bell hasn't just been slipped back in, he played in the last two tests!

He made 8, 3, 72 and 4.

The 72 was a particularly fortuitous innings as he was plumb lbw to Mitchell Johnson but not given. He looked both a big lbw candidate and vulnerable to the short-pitched stuff.

Oops, he actually played in the 3rd test as well and made a typical Bell score of 53. So he played in the last 3 tests.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Before he's played for Surrey as well.

While I can see the logic in selecting Rashid, he's likely to be carrying the drinks as Swann is the first choice spinner, and South Africa rarely offers up bunsens, which like as not is attributable to the dearth of Saffer spinners since Hugh Tayfield in the 50's.

I think that Cook (subject to his form in South Africa) will get the captaincy for the Bangladesh tour when England are likely to call up some players on the fringe like Denly, and you never know Foster.

I'd play an all-put seam attack in SA.

Davies will keep in Bangladesh if they rest Prior.

I'd give debuts in Bangladesh to Rashid and Wright for sure. I'd also like to rest Strauss, Anderson, Broad and Swann (actually I'd like to rest him permanently, but if they are going to continue to pick him, they should give him some time off).

 

[canveyshrimper]

I'd play an all-put seam attack in SA.

Davies will keep in Bangladesh if they rest Prior.

I'd give debuts in Bangladesh to Rashid and Wright for sure. I'd also like to rest Strauss, Anderson, Broad and Swann (actually I'd like to rest him permanently, but if they are going to continue to pick him, they should give him some time off).

Well the Saffers normally go all seam, although Harris is a regular member of their side for some reason which is beyond me as he is one of the worst "test class" spinners I've seen.

A bit cruel on Swann Matt, as he has done a fair job since getting in the side, however I think long term Rashid may be a better prospect.

 

[number11]

Bell hasn't just been slipped back in, he played in the last two tests!

He made 8, 3, 72 and 4.

The 72 was a particularly fortuitous innings as he was plumb lbw to Mitchell Johnson but not given. He looked both a big lbw candidate and vulnerable to the short-pitched stuff.

Oops, he actually played in the 3rd test as well and made a typical Bell score of 53. So he played in the last 3 tests.

Yes I know, he averaged 28 in that series. He was called in to replace the injured KP, then kept his place as Ravi was dropped. He has effectively been slipped back into our batting line up, ahead of Ravi, without overly justifying his place with his performaces on his recall (28).

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

He has effectively been slipped back into our batting line up, ahead of Ravi, without overly justifying his place with his performaces on his recall (28).

He is a latter-day Hick. The problem is that whenever he gets dropped and returns to county cricket, he bludgeons an improbable amount of runs... whereupon everyone says "well, if County Cricket isn't the vehicle for aspiring test players to prove their worth, then what's it for?"

Leaving aside for one second the philosophical debate as to whether County Cricket is meritorious enough to exist independently of its role as a nursery for aspiring Test cricketers, the fact remains that Bell has had more chances than most players would get in three lifetimes to prove that he has the grit and temperament to make it at Test level. Sadly, the evidence would suggest almost overwhelmingly that he doesn't.

That 72 he made at the Oval was fascinating. I seem to recall it being a pretty scratchy innings and - as YB points out - one in which he was plumb lbw when he'd barely got off the mark. Yet, I also seem to recall his press conference after the innings in which he tried to portray the innings as "vintage Belly" - one of grit and tenacity, and one where he'd single-handedly held England's innings together.

That latter point may, perhaps almost uniquely in Bell's career, have been true at the Oval. But the one thing it wasn't was "vintage Belly". "Vintage Belly" to me is looking good until you reach 32, and then dollying a catch to midwicket. And that simply isn't good enough for Test cricket.

My line-up, if KP is fit, would be:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP (actually, I'd put KP in at 3, but he clearly doesn't want to play there, so why make him?)
Collingwood (albeit he's on borrowed time as well; I suppose Bell could play there if Colly wobbles again)
Prior
Swann
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson
Onions
Mahmood

I have to say that it's a bold - perhaps even a risky selection. Part of me would like to put Wright in at six, but then that would mean that you would have to leave out one of Plunkett, Onions or Mahmood. Given the Saffer hard tops, my instinct would be to leave out Onions, who tends to be a bit of a surface-kisser - for the height and (slightly raw-er) hostility of Mahmood and Plunkett.

Plunkett is an interesting one, though. He averaged something like 44 with the bat this season in county cricket - which shows that he's no mug with the willow in hand. He could be a Gillespie figure in this side - and, to continue the Aussie analogy, the all-rounder could be seen as Matt Prior.

Either way, although six does feel, instinctively, like a place too high for Prior in the line-up, there's no question that all of Swann, Broad and Plunkett are far more capable with the bat than many of their predecessors have been in recent years. Perhaps that's still part of the Fletcher legacy that we're experiencing.

I guess it'll depend on the surface. If it's a real hard-top with true and regular bounce, then I'd go for that line-up. If we think it's a bit more irregular - and therefore we're in need of more batting solidity - I'd probably drop Saj Mahmood and put Wright in at six.

Matt

 

[Grayson]

My line-up, if KP is fit, would be:

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP (actually, I'd put KP in at 3, but he clearly doesn't want to play there, so why make him?)
Collingwood (albeit he's on borrowed time as well; I suppose Bell could play there if Colly wobbles again)
Prior
Swann
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson
Onions
Mahmood

You're right in it being a bold selection, you picked 12!

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

You're right in it being a bold selection, you picked 12!

Bugger. I need more coffee. Well, it's Onions or Mahmood, then, depending on the surface.

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Collingwood (Bell if Colly is still in dire form)
Prior
Swann
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson
Mahmood (or Onions, depending on the surface)

PS Well spotted!
PPS I'd find it more difficult to include Wright now - we'd be looking very thin on wicket-takers.

 

[number11]

Bugger. I need more coffee. Well, it's Onions or Mahmood, then, depending on the surface.

Strauss
Cook
Trott
KP
Collingwood (Bell if Colly is still in dire form)
Prior
Swann
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson
Mahmood (or Onions, depending on the surface)

PS Well spotted!
PPS I'd find it more difficult to include Wright now - we'd be looking very thin on wicket-takers.

I think we need to look at how Australia won there last year....they picked no spinners and went with pace. Feasibly you could therefore leave out Swann for Wright and have 5 pace bowlers. However Wright has not exactly shown he is dripping with international class with the bat and including him for Swann will not neccessarily strenghten the batting. You could also leave out Swann and bring in an out and out batter (Bell) meaning Prior bats at 7 and we have a 4 man pace attack like Australia did.

That said, I can't remember the last time England went into a test without a spinner so think it will be Prior at 6 with 4 seamers and a spinner.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Incidentally, what are people's predictions for this series?

We may chortle about it being a "home" series for a number of our players - but, oddly, I think that it will bring out the very best in the likes of Strauss (who, to be fair, is in top form anyway), Trott, KP and Prior. In batting terms, if we're firing all cylinders, then our top order is no worse than theirs... other than the fact that Kallis may well be the greatest all-rounder of our generation, meaning that they properly bat down to seven (whereas in my putative line-up, we're beginning to look optimistic beyond six).

The key is that their pace bowling attack is a good deal stronger than ours - with Morkel, Nel, Ntini, Steyn and Hall to pick from - and Kallis there as well - they can chop and change depending on form, fitness and venue. I still have my doubts about Paul Harris, but then he's no worse than (say) a Swann or Rashid.

I think we'll be generally obdurate and tight-knit, but that we'll chuck a session or five and that will give them the series.

3-1 Saffers, I reckon. Thoughts?

Matt

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

That said, I can't remember the last time England went into a test without a spinner so think it will be Prior at 6 with 4 seamers and a spinner.

The problem with an all-pace attack, it seems to me, is that right now we appear to be utterly clueless with the old ball. Once it's got to about 55+ overs, our "plan A" appears to be to chuck it to the spinner and grind through the overs until we're entitled to the new ball again. It makes me all wistful for Simon Jones.

That being so, I can't see how we go into the game without a spinner. Besides, it appears that South African wickets do take a bit of spin - or at least one is capable of tying down an end with a spinner. In his 12 Tests at home, Harris has picked up 33 at 28.3, which isn't too shabby at all. To compare: Swann's 7 tests at home have reaped 21 at 32.66, which makes Harris on paper the more potent.

I'd like Prior in at 7 - but I think we need four pacemen plus Swann, otherwise we're simply not going to get the wickets (Exhibit A: our performances this year at Cardiff, Headingley and Egbaston).

Matt

 

[number11]

Predictions - South Africa to win by 2 tests. They just look better than us allround. There has to be serious doubts whether KP will be 100% or indeed play. Their batsmen now can anchor down and play real substantial innings (Smith, Kallis, De Villiers, Prince, Dumminy, Amla have all scored big big hundreds recently) and Steyn is the top pace bowler in the world. I dont think Ntini is a great threat and his powers are waning and Morkel has not lived up to the hype, but I still think they have far too much for us. If we win it will be on the back of some special performances like when we won there last time (Strauss realing off big hundreds, Tres's 180, Hoggards hatful of wickets and Thorpes obdurate contributions),