Irate Ian - his crusade to be welcomed in the long-term club interests or not?

[ElstreeBlue]

Can't help feeling that there is a personal battle going on on this site.

Irate Ian has some (IMHO) valid questions to raise. Some others seem to be fed up with him - either because he's been round this route many times before or they have blind faith in Ron Martin. This seems to have become a personal battle now, but I believe the issues are valid.

To me, part of the reason Ian is still going on and on and on and on is because he has genuine concerns as a long-term fan of the club and his many concerns have not been answered. That can be objectively proved. It seems to me it's not all in Ian's head! Why have they not been answered? Only Ron Martin can answer that. Ian claims that Ron Martin promised him answers 6 months, so why haven't they been provided?

But even if Ron Martin had not promised them, then are not entitled to know whether the club has long-term financial security? As a fan, I am very interested in knowing. As a shareholder, I also have a legal right from the directors to be told. Shareholders' rights are often trampled on by company directors. But customer (ie fans') power can win the day and put pressure on the directors if we stand united. Would Sainsbury's be bothered if one isolated disgruntled customer complained? No. Would Sainsbury's be bothered if a large proportion of its customer base put pressure on? Of course. Hence Mr Martin's statements to appeal to the fans from time to time - he knows keeping customers happy makes good business sense.

What bothers me is the reaction to Ian on here. This site demonstrates a lot of cynicism about many things. And why not? Keep being cynical, particularly where business-people are concerned.

So why the apparent lack of appetite by some on here to be interested about this £80m black hole and whether the club will benefit or whether it's Mr Martin's companies that would benefit? We have seen nothing concrete so far to suggest Mr Martin doesn't want to do well for the club. But his whole interest in the club seems to have been based on selling Roots Hall and building a new stadium complex with other business facilities. Have many fans been lulled into a false sense of security and assumed - without even wanting to question it - that he only has good intentions for the club?

If we have no club to support in 5-10 years' time because a property developer came in, benefited for his own other companies, used the fans to help get the planning permission he needed, and then left the club high and dry, I'd say well done to the blind faith brigade who have shot down rather than supported one of our fellow ardent fans who just wants to get to the bottom of what this really means for our club's future (and whether we'll have one at all). If the answers are positive for the future of SUFC, why can't we just be told once and for all rather than be given unsubstantiated soundbites that are designed to placate the fans without going into any detail about what this really means for SUFC's future??

I personally am interested in reading the threads about Walsall, etc, but am not as interested in the debates about a one-off result, or even if we (worst comes to the worst) go down this year, compared with whether we will have a football team to support at all in 5 years' time. Ian's questions are therefore very very valid, even if it now seems to have turned into a personal battle.

I don't see this as a FF debate. In fact, I'm generally not especially interested in the finer details of the stadium (which is why I don't read the FF part of this site much). What I do care about is whether we will have a club to support in 5-10 years and beyond or whether we're saddled with debt and a property company is taking all the benefits for a property development that we all supported IN GOOD FAITH BELIEVING IT TO BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF SUFC'S LONG-TERM FUTURE. Until Ron Martin clears up a lot of the unanswered questions, we still don't know. Ron Martin used the fans to get his property development plans approved, but could we have been unsuspecting pawns to help his other business interests? Let's have this answered once and for all. What does it really mean for SUFC? We still don't know. Will we have a club to support in 5-10 years' time? Ian's many questions remain valid. I am as concerned that Ron Martin has not answered them when he had said he would as the fact that the cost of the complex has mushroomed to £80m and there is no hope of getting that in the current climate, or if so it would be at such terms as probably to ruin SUFC's future.

This is NOT a debate about the niceties of the new stadium. This is a debate about whether there are valid questions to be asked over whether we will end up having a club to support in the future. I welcome that and agree it should not be on the graveyard part of the site that many of us are not interested in. Are most of us interested in whether the club will be financially viable in 5 years' time? Absolutely. Mods - please keep this debate alive here.

I would ask that Ian doesn't get involved in this thread, because it will just degenerate into a "What's your problem" and "I have valid concerns" dialogue between Ian and the others.

 

[graysblue]

posted yesterday the same thing be it only very brief.

for me the guy is doing nothing wrong only trying to establish the facts,personally i applaud the guy.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

posted yesterday the same thing be it only very brief.

for me the guy is doing nothing wrong only trying to establish the facts,personally i applaud the guy.

Started a new thread because I suspect most people may have given up reading a thread in which Ian has over 50% of the posts and he is repeating a lot of the stuff he has raised before.

 

[Hotman]

I agree that he has a valid point, why doesn't he set up a new website to set out his questions etc rather than post them several times over on here though?

Surely he can then put a link into his signature, post about topics already raised on here and continually remind people about his quest.

Also, I understand he has personal reasons not to buy shares, so why does he not find somebody to ask for him at AGM?

 

[McNasty]

It is a shame that quite a few posters' only concern is whether a tall keeper is better than a shortie. I am sure Ian has the fans' interests at heart and it is quite right someone should question Ron Martin who, if he is all above board (and I'm sure he is), should give answers to those questions.

 

[Jam_Man]

Ian does ask some valid questions, many of which Id like to know the answer however what many find frustrating is the way he does it.

We get numerous threads all over the forum which are often difficult to read, duplicates of each other, all referring to his other threads and in the end I gave up reading them.

Ian had doubts about RM before and had a meeting with him and came away happy. I understand he is frustrated now that he hasnt received replies, which is totally acceptable, but think rather than keep posting multiple threads on here he should now go directly to the club.

Ian already had a face to face with the man himself and it looks a bit odd to come on here and it seems a bit daft to come on here without making an attempt to at least contact RM first. Yes the club read this forum but that doesnt prevent him going direct....

 

[Farmer Fossett]

Elstree I agree 100% with your post.
Ian carry on your crusade!!!

 

[Benfleet Blue]

I too am concerned with Ian's lack of response from RM. Ian's concerns are for the long term future of SUFC and not just the current situation which I applaud.

If answers are not provided directly then Ian has done the right thing by posting on here to try to pressurise answers.

Having heard one or two promises from RM over the past 2 years, which have not proved to be correct, the man asked all supporters to rally round to place pressure on gaining approval for the stadium yet does so mainly for what appears currently to be personal gain.

With RM's current precarious personal position and his past associations people should have reason for doubt especially if answers are not forthcoming.
Ian, many of us are behind you and appreciate your pursuit of the appropriate answers to your many relevant concerns.

 

[Hotman]

It is a shame that quite a few posters' only concern is whether a tall keeper is better than a shortie.

esp seeing as it is often female / gay posters and really, they are more concerned about which keeper has a peachier arse

 

[OldBlueLady]

I agree with Jam Man on this, of course Ian has a very valid point and he has every right to keep the issue in the forefront of our minds, however, it's as Elstree says in his 2nd post, the issue of the repetitive nature, quoting himself and repeating in several threads that becomes a bit tedious. Certainly I haven't paid as much attention to this as I did initially as a result.

I think it's good that a section of our fan base are committed and concerned enough to continue seeking the facts and the "truth" on our behalf and I certainly support Ian in this venture but just maybe it would be better done in the form of a Slipper type column where he can periodically report on any new information, and update on any concerns still outstanding.

 

[Lord Football]

I've only really come across Ian in the Moussa debates, where he didn't take on any opposing view, attempted to put words in my mouth and backtracked over what he had said. I don't know who Ian is, but if he is like that in real life then I could imagine he'd be considered a pain in the arse.

HOWEVER, this is an internet forum and the idea of internet forums is for people to post their views. If people are bored, irritated, annoyed, upset or angered by Ian's (or anyone else's posts) the simple suggestion is simply not to read them.

So whilst I'll disagree with Ian, I defend his right to post what he damn well likes so long as it is in the rules.


Suggestion... on the forum I run, we simply merge posts of a similar nature. Don't know if you've tried that or if I am teaching you to suck eggs (and so, I apologise).

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Can't help feeling that there is a personal battle going on on this site.

Irate Ian has some (IMHO) valid questions to raise. Some others seem to be fed up with him - either because he's been round this route many times before or they have blind faith in Ron Martin. This seems to have become a personal battle now, but I believe the issues are valid.

To me, part of the reason Ian is still going on and on and on and on is because he has genuine concerns as a long-term fan of the club and his many concerns have not been answered. That can be objectively proved. It seems to me it's not all in Ian's head! Why have they not been answered? Only Ron Martin can answer that. Ian claims that Ron Martin promised him answers 6 months, so why haven't they been provided?

But even if Ron Martin had not promised them, then are not entitled to know whether the club has long-term financial security? As a fan, I am very interested in knowing. As a shareholder, I also have a legal right from the directors to be told. Shareholders' rights are often trampled on by company directors. But customer (ie fans') power can win the day and put pressure on the directors if we stand united. Would Sainsbury's be bothered if one isolated disgruntled customer complained? No. Would Sainsbury's be bothered if a large proportion of its customer base put pressure on? Of course. Hence Mr Martin's statements to appeal to the fans from time to time - he knows keeping customers happy makes good business sense.

What bothers me is the reaction to Ian on here. This site demonstrates a lot of cynicism about many things. And why not? Keep being cynical, particularly where business-people are concerned.

So why the apparent lack of appetite by some on here to be interested about this £80m black hole and whether the club will benefit or whether it's Mr Martin's companies that would benefit? We have seen nothing concrete so far to suggest Mr Martin doesn't want to do well for the club. But his whole interest in the club seems to have been based on selling Roots Hall and building a new stadium complex with other business facilities. Have many fans been lulled into a false sense of security and assumed - without even wanting to question it - that he only has good intentions for the club?

If we have no club to support in 5-10 years' time because a property developer came in, benefited for his own other companies, used the fans to help get the planning permission he needed, and then left the club high and dry, I'd say well done to the blind faith brigade who have shot down rather than supported one of our fellow ardent fans who just wants to get to the bottom of what this really means for our club's future (and whether we'll have one at all). If the answers are positive for the future of SUFC, why can't we just be told once and for all rather than be given unsubstantiated soundbites that are designed to placate the fans without going into any detail about what this really means for SUFC's future??

I personally am interested in reading the threads about Walsall, etc, but am not as interested in the debates about a one-off result, or even if we (worst comes to the worst) go down this year, compared with whether we will have a football team to support at all in 5 years' time. Ian's questions are therefore very very valid, even if it now seems to have turned into a personal battle.

I don't see this as a FF debate. In fact, I'm generally not especially interested in the finer details of the stadium (which is why I don't read the FF part of this site much). What I do care about is whether we will have a club to support in 5-10 years and beyond or whether we're saddled with debt and a property company is taking all the benefits for a property development that we all supported IN GOOD FAITH BELIEVING IT TO BE FOR THE BENEFIT OF SUFC'S LONG-TERM FUTURE. Until Ron Martin clears up a lot of the unanswered questions, we still don't know. Ron Martin used the fans to get his property development plans approved, but could we have been unsuspecting pawns to help his other business interests? Let's have this answered once and for all. What does it really mean for SUFC? We still don't know. Will we have a club to support in 5-10 years' time? Ian's many questions remain valid. I am as concerned that Ron Martin has not answered them when he had said he would as the fact that the cost of the complex has mushroomed to £80m and there is no hope of getting that in the current climate, or if so it would be at such terms as probably to ruin SUFC's future.

This is NOT a debate about the niceties of the new stadium. This is a debate about whether there are valid questions to be asked over whether we will end up having a club to support in the future. I welcome that and agree it should not be on the graveyard part of the site that many of us are not interested in. Are most of us interested in whether the club will be financially viable in 5 years' time? Absolutely. Mods - please keep this debate alive here.

I would ask that Ian doesn't get involved in this thread, because it will just degenerate into a "What's your problem" and "I have valid concerns" dialogue between Ian and the others.

It seems to be a personal attack on Ron Martin, some sort of vendetta and if anyone is interested in his rants, maybe they should PM and ask for his rants and crazy thoughts to be sent to them personally rather than have all of us tortured by it...

 

[Reg Martin]

I think it is only natural for fans of a football club to want some clarity about the ownership and financial status of the club and the planned new stadium.
There does seem to be a gap though between what we as fans want to know and what Ron Martin as a businessman is obliged to tell us - and probably also what he feels are in his wider business interests to make public.
It is this gap that allows the speculation about possible ulterior motives on Ron Martin's part and whether they are in conflict with the best interests of the club to continue.

 

[TrueBlue]

Ian does ask some valid questions, many of which Id like to know the answer however what many find frustrating is the way he does it.

We get numerous threads all over the forum which are often difficult to read, duplicates of each other, all referring to his other threads and in the end I gave up reading them.

Ian had doubts about RM before and had a meeting with him and came away happy. I understand he is frustrated now that he hasnt received replies, which is totally acceptable, but think rather than keep posting multiple threads on here he should now go directly to the club.

Ian already had a face to face with the man himself and it looks a bit odd to come on here and it seems a bit daft to come on here without making an attempt to at least contact RM first. Yes the club read this forum but that doesnt prevent him going direct....

Bang on....

Ian your a good bloke but its just a case of you setting out your points

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I find the lack of answers proffered so far somewhat concerning, particularly when the chairman is normally so touchy to criticism. Maybe a more critical approach is needed in order for RM to fire off another round of press releases....

I also find the complacency amongst the fans, the media, fanzines etc worrying. These are questions that should be asked, and it is disappointing that not only is seemingly only one person asking these questions, but that many seem to hostile to these questions being asked. You've got to wonder if people are afraid of asking the questions because they won't like the answers.

I think the Trust, as ever, do a lot of sterling work behind the scenes, which I should probably make more of an effort to keep up with. I'd be interested to here the Trust's position on these matters.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

It seems to be a personal attack on Ron Martin, some sort of vendetta and if anyone is interested in his rants, maybe they should PM and ask for his rants and crazy thoughts to be sent to them personally rather than have all of us tortured by it...

DWB - I can only assume that you are either a friend or family of Ron Martin or you have had an incredibly fortunate life in which everyone you have ever come across has proved 100% trustworthy and you have never been let down.

Please read my post again. There is no vendetta against Ron Martin here. Certainly not from me. And I believe not from Ian, either (although I haven't read every one of his posts). I am not saying Ron Martin is not trustworthy. I just have a desire to ask searching questions for the sake of us having a club to support in the future. Hopefully we'll get answers that show that all is looking good for the future of the club. But the longer this silence goes on, you have to wonder. There is no meat on the bones - all we know is that there's a big costly development being built at FF, at which SUFC will play football instead of at Roots Hall.

I believe Ron Martin saved the club at the time that Vic Jobson's poor health had led to the club nearly going out of business. For that I'll be grateful. But why did he do it? He's not a mad SUFC fan like the rest of us. He's a businessman. And from the outside he seems to have seen the club as a money-making property opportunity. That's not a bad thing if it benefits the club. But does it? Do Ron Martin's and SUFC's interests coincide? Hopefully - but we'll only know that if we get some answers.

Who will own the new stadium? Who will benefit from the ancillary activities? Who's benefiting from the FF development, when the club doesn't even own its ground at the moment? How will the club benefit? Will it just be a mere tenant, and on what terms? What will the "rent" be to a landlord who is saddled with debt that was borrowed during the hard-to-get-money times of the credit crunch for a project that had ballooned to an unbelievable £80m? Will SUFC have security of tenure - or will the club get kicked out if the club - as a mere tenant - falls behind in payments?

You get the point? These are all serious questions. There are many more. If they're not answered to the club's satisfaction now, it may be too late. The club may never recover.

Ron Martin clearly listens to fan power. He has before. In fact, he has used us to get the FF development plans through with pressure on the council, etc. For whose benefit was this? Hopefully for the club's, but we still don't know.

He may not seem overly bothered at the moment, because all the running is seemingly coming from one person. However, what this thread shows is that there are quite a lot of us who support what Ian's been doing but people's attitudes have become softened - maybe because of a dislike of Ian's methods as he has continued to repeat himself? There are the odd one or two like DWB who have 100% blind faith. But most of us want answers. I, for one, support what Ian has been doing and we shouldn't let ourselves become apathetic. Perhaps the reason for Ian repeating himself is that he has tried - on his own - to keep this on the agenda after Ron Martin has still not provided answers.

Given that there seem to be a lot of us who are concerned about the situation, what to do? How do we put the pressure on to make sure SUFC's future is safeguarded? Ian's actions to date need to be supported and to be taken forward, so Ron's in no doubt about the strength of feeling and concern. But how? Yorkshire Blue mentioned the Shrimpers Trust. I don't understand how that organisation works, but a fans group that is not just one person's voice - ie Irate Ian's - needs to take on the baton now.

 

[graysblue]

excellent post.


RM could shut us all up.................................answers is all we need.

 

[Ozzer]

DWB - I can only assume that you are either a friend or family of Ron Martin or you have had an incredibly fortunate life in which everyone you have ever come across has proved 100% trustworthy and you have never been let down.

Please read my post again. There is no vendetta against Ron Martin here. Certainly not from me. And I believe not from Ian, either (although I haven't read every one of his posts). I am not saying Ron Martin is not trustworthy. I just have a desire to ask searching questions for the sake of us having a club to support in the future. Hopefully we'll get answers that show that all is looking good for the future of the club. But the longer this silence goes on, you have to wonder. There is no meat on the bones - all we know is that there's a big costly development being built at FF, at which SUFC will play football instead of at Roots Hall.

I believe Ron Martin saved the club at the time that Vic Jobson's poor health had led to the club nearly going out of business. For that I'll be grateful. But why did he do it? He's not a mad SUFC fan like the rest of us. He's a businessman. And from the outside he seems to have seen the club as a money-making property opportunity. That's not a bad thing if it benefits the club. But does it? Do Ron Martin's and SUFC's interests coincide? Hopefully - but we'll only know that if we get some answers.

Who will own the new stadium? Who will benefit from the ancillary activities? Who's benefiting from the FF development, when the club doesn't even own its ground at the moment? How will the club benefit? Will it just be a mere tenant, and on what terms? What will the "rent" be to a landlord who is saddled with debt that was borrowed during the hard-to-get-money times of the credit crunch for a project that had ballooned to an unbelievable £80m? Will SUFC have security of tenure - or will the club get kicked out if the club - as a mere tenant - falls behind in payments?

You get the point? These are all serious questions. There are many more. If they're not answered to the club's satisfaction now, it may be too late. The club may never recover.

Ron Martin clearly listens to fan power. He has before. In fact, he has used us to get the FF development plans through with pressure on the council, etc. For whose benefit was this? Hopefully for the club's, but we still don't know.

He may not seem overly bothered at the moment, because all the running is seemingly coming from one person. However, what this thread shows is that there are quite a lot of us who support what Ian's been doing but people's attitudes have become softened - maybe because of a dislike of Ian's methods as he has continued to repeat himself? There are the odd one or two like DWB who have 100% blind faith. But most of us want answers. I, for one, support what Ian has been doing and we shouldn't let ourselves become apathetic. Perhaps the reason for Ian repeating himself is that he has tried - on his own - to keep this on the agenda after Ron Martin has still not provided answers.

Given that there seem to be a lot of us who are concerned about the situation, what to do? How do we put the pressure on to make sure SUFC's future is safeguarded? Ian's actions to date need to be supported and to be taken forward, so Ron's in no doubt about the strength of feeling and concern. But how? Yorkshire Blue mentioned the Shrimpers Trust. I don't understand how that organisation works, but a fans group that is not just one person's voice - ie Irate Ian's - needs to take on the baton now.

Have a look at www.shrimperstrust.co.uk and join.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

DWB - I can only assume that you are either a friend or family of Ron Martin or you have had an incredibly fortunate life in which everyone you have ever come across has proved 100% trustworthy and you have never been let down.

Please read my post again. There is no vendetta against Ron Martin here. Certainly not from me. And I believe not from Ian, either (although I haven't read every one of his posts). I am not saying Ron Martin is not trustworthy. I just have a desire to ask searching questions for the sake of us having a club to support in the future. Hopefully we'll get answers that show that all is looking good for the future of the club. But the longer this silence goes on, you have to wonder. There is no meat on the bones - all we know is that there's a big costly development being built at FF, at which SUFC will play football instead of at Roots Hall.

I believe Ron Martin saved the club at the time that Vic Jobson's poor health had led to the club nearly going out of business. For that I'll be grateful. But why did he do it? He's not a mad SUFC fan like the rest of us. He's a businessman. And from the outside he seems to have seen the club as a money-making property opportunity. That's not a bad thing if it benefits the club. But does it? Do Ron Martin's and SUFC's interests coincide? Hopefully - but we'll only know that if we get some answers.

Who will own the new stadium? Who will benefit from the ancillary activities? Who's benefiting from the FF development, when the club doesn't even own its ground at the moment? How will the club benefit? Will it just be a mere tenant, and on what terms? What will the "rent" be to a landlord who is saddled with debt that was borrowed during the hard-to-get-money times of the credit crunch for a project that had ballooned to an unbelievable £80m? Will SUFC have security of tenure - or will the club get kicked out if the club - as a mere tenant - falls behind in payments?

You get the point? These are all serious questions. There are many more. If they're not answered to the club's satisfaction now, it may be too late. The club may never recover.

Ron Martin clearly listens to fan power. He has before. In fact, he has used us to get the FF development plans through with pressure on the council, etc. For whose benefit was this? Hopefully for the club's, but we still don't know.

He may not seem overly bothered at the moment, because all the running is seemingly coming from one person. However, what this thread shows is that there are quite a lot of us who support what Ian's been doing but people's attitudes have become softened - maybe because of a dislike of Ian's methods as he has continued to repeat himself? There are the odd one or two like DWB who have 100% blind faith. But most of us want answers. I, for one, support what Ian has been doing and we shouldn't let ourselves become apathetic. Perhaps the reason for Ian repeating himself is that he has tried - on his own - to keep this on the agenda after Ron Martin has still not provided answers.

Given that there seem to be a lot of us who are concerned about the situation, what to do? How do we put the pressure on to make sure SUFC's future is safeguarded? Ian's actions to date need to be supported and to be taken forward, so Ron's in no doubt about the strength of feeling and concern. But how? Yorkshire Blue mentioned the Shrimpers Trust. I don't understand how that organisation works, but a fans group that is not just one person's voice - ie Irate Ian's - needs to take on the baton now.

I was talking about Irate Ian and not you......Irate Ian seems to have the vendetta!!

Ireally don't appreciate all Ian's Rants etc. I just think that he should let people PM if they want to know more. I don't want to block Ian's posts either as he has opinions on a lot of other things!

 

[fatshrimp]

Irate Ian does have some valid points about the running of this business (and lets be honest, this is what this is!), but I can also see why he would irk some people.

That said, I'm not aware that RM is bound by any ruling that says he should answer the questions raised by any fan. Obviously, some would say that RM has a moral obligation to the supporters. I'm not sure if Irate Ian is a shareholder, and therefore be able to table any questions at the AGM (if they have one). But, to my knowledge, RM would still not have to answer any questions.

May not be a suspicious thing on behalf of RM or the club, but perhaps they are taking the stand that they've already disclosed enough at this stage.