English County System Needs A Revamp

[Stats]

Having spent time out in Australia last xmas I watched quite a bit of cricket, both International and State. One obvious thing is there are only 6 Aussie state sides compared to 18 English county sides. They dont use overseas players in 4 day games therefore every game will see 22 Australians take to the field & they play less games making competition for places fierce.

People cant argue that the Aussie system doesnt work, they have dominated world cricket for the past 15 years and the bunch coming through now look like they can continue that on.

Looking at our system its very unbalanced, too many non English players, we play far too much cricket, there is also a massive gap in quality between the top of Division 1 and bottom of Division 2 yet both of those Divisions can provide players for the national team.

For instance Cook and Bopara or Key and Denly can get plenty of runs for an Essex/Kent side in Division 2 playing against a powderpuff attack like Leicestershire but likes of Hildreth of Somerset, Moore of Worcester have to score runs against sides like Durham boasting Harmison, Onions, Plunkett.

I am of the opinion now that if we want to get the best out of our test players and fringe test players then the ECB need to form some kind of Elite League. Overseas players isnt a problem as counties can only pick one anyway but the Kolpakkers are.

Can the ECB put a limit on those for instance or would that be a breach of peoples human rights to work?

FYI below listed are England players who have played in the Ashes and the number division they would play in for their county. Below them is a list of other fringe players and their respective division.

Strauss - 2
Cook - 2
Bopara - 2
Pietersen - 1
Bell - 1
Collingwood - 1
Prior - 1
Flintoff - 1
Broad - 1
Swann - 1
Anderson - 1
Harmison - 1
Onions - 1
Panesar - 2

Key - 2
Denly - 2
Shah - 2
Carberry - 1
Hildreth - 1
Moore - 1
Trott - 1
Ambrose - 1
Foster - 2
Rashid - 1
Sidebottom - 1
Plunkett - 1
Mahmood - 1

 

[canveyshrimper]

Good post Stats, and very much agree about the situation of counties opting for Kolpak players rather than home grown talent. I believe that majority of Kolpak players are here on EU passports therefore they do not require work permits, and by default are therefore not considered "foreign" players because of their so called EU citizen status.

I have no issue with top class overseas players taking a spot with the counties as many of these from Sobers to Tendulkar, Lara and the crop of modern players have enriched the game. Also back in the 60's when the qualification period for overseas players was lifted, county cricket was dying on its feet. Players at the time who came in such as Lance Gibbs, Barry Richards, Rohan Kanhai, Garfield Sobers got bums back on seats for 3 day cricket and it was an unqualified success. However the counties being what they are went over the top with this and some had 3, 4 or more overseas stars in their ranks. I remember Warwicks winning the title with Kallicharran, Kanhai & Gibbs in their team. Therefore limitations were made to two players then one, which went back to two for a time.

Kolpak players should be considered as overseas players, and counties should be restricted to a maximum of two overseas players, this will leave in the region of 180 English qualified players playing at any one time. Whether they prove to be test class is a moot point, but I think the above is a simple solution which should be adopted, but I doubt will.

Interesting you name Pietersen as a division one player, but I am pretty sure he hasn't played a first class game for Hampshire in 4 years.

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

KP has played one first class match for Hants since joining, utterly ridiculous if you ask me

 

[canveyshrimper]

KP has played one first class match for Hants since joining, utterly ridiculous if you ask me

Agreed mate, ridiculous, in part down to England dictating which games he can play in. Any idea how many one dayers he's played for Hants since joining them?

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

Agreed mate, ridiculous, in part down to England dictating which games he can play in. Any idea how many one dayers he's played for Hants since joining them?

No idea sorry, i just heard the one Hants match stat the other day, obviously he has a central contract but i wonder if Hants are paying his wages too, cos if i were a fan of theirs i'd be pretty miffed as i imagine he won't be taking chicken feed

 

[canveyshrimper]

No idea sorry, i just heard the one Hants match stat the other day, obviously he has a central contract but i wonder if Hants are paying his wages too, cos if i were a fan of theirs i'd be pretty miffed as i imagine he won't be taking chicken feed

If he's contracted to Hampshire, which he must be then they are paying his wages too. Rod Bromsgrove who was the main mover behind the Rose Bowl development is their main backer so I am sure that he'll have this base covered.

 

[Stats]

Same here I have no problem with decent overseas players coming over but there needs to be limit and that figure would include Kolpakkers.

Also going onto the Pietersen point of not really playing for Hampshire, I remember days gone by when there England were not playing all of the players would play for the county. It was quite common for the likes of Gooch, Gatting etc to get in 8 county games as well as tests and ODI's.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Indeed, I am largely in favour of central contracts as it has bought about continuity of selection, but players should be allowed to turn out for their counties more readily. Last season we had the ridiculous situation where Strauss was turning out for Middlesex yet Cook was fart arsing around twiddling his thumbs.

Whether the ECB have the courage to grasp the nettle where Kolpakkers are concerned I'd very much doubt. As I've said I see no harm in counties fielding two overseas players, as England will still have the best part of 200 players to choose from, whether these are good enough remains to be seen.

 

[Stats]

What I'd like to see is the centrally contracted players not attached to a county side but loaned out to county sides.

For example at the start of the season England announces its contracted players, they then offer these players to side in the top division therefore should they play for a county side then they will be playing against the ''best'' players in the league.

I mean take this week Cook and Bopara play for Essex in a division 2 game against Middlesex who sit in 8th (out of 9) position in the league. Not really ideal prep for facing the likes of Hilfenhaus, Siddle, Johnson and Clark. The likes of Trott and Bell are having much better preparation by facing a decent Notts side.

 

[canveyshrimper]

That's quite a radical idea. However the counties will never go for it on the grounds that the "parent" county has nurtured and developed the player through their youth & colts system.

 

[Swiss Tony]

Having spent time out in Australia last xmas I watched quite a bit of cricket, both International and State. One obvious thing is there are only 6 Aussie state sides compared to 18 English county sides. They dont use overseas players in 4 day games therefore every game will see 22 Australians take to the field & they play less games making competition for places fierce.

People cant argue that the Aussie system doesnt work, they have dominated world cricket for the past 15 years and the bunch coming through now look like they can continue that on.

Looking at our system its very unbalanced, too many non English players, we play far too much cricket, there is also a massive gap in quality between the top of Division 1 and bottom of Division 2 yet both of those Divisions can provide players for the national team.

For instance Cook and Bopara or Key and Denly can get plenty of runs for an Essex/Kent side in Division 2 playing against a powderpuff attack like Leicestershire but likes of Hildreth of Somerset, Moore of Worcester have to score runs against sides like Durham boasting Harmison, Onions, Plunkett.

I am of the opinion now that if we want to get the best out of our test players and fringe test players then the ECB need to form some kind of Elite League. Overseas players isnt a problem as counties can only pick one anyway but the Kolpakkers are.

Can the ECB put a limit on those for instance or would that be a breach of peoples human rights to work?

FYI below listed are England players who have played in the Ashes and the number division they would play in for their county. Below them is a list of other fringe players and their respective division.

Strauss - 2
Cook - 2
Bopara - 2
Pietersen - 1
Bell - 1
Collingwood - 1
Prior - 1
Flintoff - 1
Broad - 1
Swann - 1
Anderson - 1
Harmison - 1
Onions - 1
Panesar - 2

Key - 2
Denly - 2
Shah - 2
Carberry - 1
Hildreth - 1
Moore - 1
Trott - 1
Ambrose - 1
Foster - 2
Rashid - 1
Sidebottom - 1
Plunkett - 1
Mahmood - 1

1-1 against the best team in the world,it's a disaster,Strauss out.

 

[Stats]

That's quite a radical idea. However the counties will never go for it on the grounds that the "parent" county has nurtured and developed the player through their youth & colts system.

Thing is the counties dont pay the centrally contracted players unless they play for them. Players on the increment contracts like Prior, Bopara and Onions are the other way round.

Radical idea it is but its the only way I think he can be competative unless we got rid of the county game and replaced it with a Australian style state/region competition and we both know that aint going to happen.

Whilst we are reshaping the domestic game i'd like to see some more International prep matches say North vs South, then after we'd have a combo side (England Lions) which could play both the tourists and our full test side.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Fair point about both central and incremental contracts.

Years ago there always used to be a North v South game, or similar which in many ways acted as a Test trial for the season.

England often succeed despite of our system, not because of it, and good test class players always come through. There is also the academy / lions system which further gives continuity of selection. The intrinsic problem is to give county players hard, competitive cricket, how that is achieved, I'm not sure.

I was just reading an article suggesting that first class cricket is reduced to 10 matches per season, but this won't guarantee more competitive cricket, and it won't bring less as the ECB and counties will want to make up the short fall by more one day or T20 cricket.

Taking your earlier suggestion about central contract players playing for division one sides rather than their parent counties. A potential (and non starting) idea maybe to have a squad of 15/16 or so lions players playing together as a team in the championship. An example of this is the England B side taking part in the WIndies Shell Shield competition a few years back.

It is a little strange having this debate considering we are 1-1 in an Ashes series, although IMO this isn't a particularly good convict side.

 

[Stats]

Nail on the head Harry, its the competative cricket. If they produced the Lions 15 squad then all these players would play and gel as a unit better thus be easier promoting them to the full side.

I remember when our England A side went to the WIndies and played in that comp, IIRC they did quite well and got to the final.

 

[Stats]

1-1 against the best team in the world,it's a disaster,Strauss out.

Are you saying we should just proceed how we are and shouldnt look to better ourselves, aim for the top spot and aim to stay there?

What professional sportsman doesnt want to better himself?

 

[canveyshrimper]

Nail on the head Harry, its the competative cricket. If they produced the Lions 15 squad then all these players would play and gel as a unit better thus be easier promoting them to the full side.

I remember when our England A side went to the WIndies and played in that comp, IIRC they did quite well and got to the final.

Yes they did get to the final where they lost. I think a Lions side also took part in the Indian Duleep trophy a year or two back, but were knocked out in the qualifying rounds.

 

[Slipperduke]

We could start by having a coherent domestic season. I've been on at the ECB trying to find out what their plans are for next season and they haven't a clue.

I've been really trying to follow the domestic game and I haven't got a clue what's going on. Too many leagues, too many competitions. Why can't they go back to one big division with a first class game every week and then break it up with a T20 game on a Sunday?

They could also have a look at their ticket prices. 15 quid for a day of county cricket? Are they absolutely mental? Do they look around the empty stands and wonder what they're doing wrong? Charge that for the one day game, by all means, but not for something that's held on a weekday. For all the gate receipts they get charging that for a ticket (aprox 45 quid, I'd imagine), they could make it free and take the money back through drink and food sales. They're not even thinking.

 

[Ron Manager]

I think you make some valid points Statski and I know from our discussions over a beer or 10 when you was in Brisbane that you are passionate and knowledgeable about your cricket.

However one thing I would say is Australia has 6 states for an approx 21 million population - 3.5 million per team. England has 18 counties for approx 51 million people - 2.8 million per team. So England has a far bigger population and should have the players to support more first class teams. Yes, I know it's not as simple as that overall but it must be a factor?