• Welcome to the ShrimperZone forums.
    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which only gives you limited access.

    Existing Users:.
    Please log-in using your existing username and password. If you have any problems, please see below.

    New Users:
    Join our free community now and gain access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free. Click here to join.

    Fans from other clubs
    We welcome and appreciate supporters from other clubs who wish to engage in sensible discussion. Please feel free to join as above but understand that this is a moderated site and those who cannot play nicely will be quickly removed.

    Assistance Required
    For help with the registration process or accessing your account, please send a note using the Contact us link in the footer, please include your account name. We can then provide you with a new password and verification to get you on the site.

Dennis McShane: "Being a Guardian reading liberal leftie made me ignore child abuse"

Reg Martin

No Relation
Dennis McShane: "Being a Guardian reading liberal leftie made me ignore child abuse"

The title of the thread is a quote from the former Rotherham Labour MP Dennis McShane in a BBC interview - what are peoples' views on this?
 
Last edited:
This is like the Yewtree business where you can't understand how so many people must have been aware and no one steps up to do anything. Shocking.

One of the few who did try speaking out at Rotherham council was sent on a 2 day diversity course - what's is really shocking is the persons burying their heads in sand are no doubt still on the payroll.
 
One of the few who did try speaking out at Rotherham council was sent on a 2 day diversity course - what's is really shocking is the persons burying their heads in sand are no doubt still on the payroll.

Labour have managed four suspensions so far....One of the questions that should be asked - is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?
 
Last edited:
Labour have managed four suspensions so far....One of the questions that should be asked - is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?

Are Tories prone to turning a blind eye when it comes to friends of the rich & famous? I believe Saville was VERY good friends with Thatcher & Prince Charles.
 
Labour have managed four suspensions so far....One of the questions that should be asked - is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?

You're having a laugh. Just slip the tories a few quid and they'll have your granny chained up in a dungeon listening to Gary Barlow records. Rotherham's disgusting but it's not party political.
 
Are Tories prone to turning a blind eye when it comes to friends of the rich & famous? I believe Saville was VERY good friends with Thatcher & Prince Charles.

If they knew then definitely.
However the question was - is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?
 
You're having a laugh. Just slip the tories a few quid and they'll have your granny chained up in a dungeon listening to Gary Barlow records. Rotherham's disgusting but it's not party political.

If it isn't party political then why are the Labour party suspending its members?

Back to the question

Is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?
 
If it isn't party political then why are the Labour party suspending its members?

Back to the question

Is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?

My original point is that tarring one political party due to the actions of Rotherham council is the same as saying that all Tories kept hush on the child abuse scandals that involved people like Saville - it's just not true. I may be anti-Tory policy but I'd like to think they're still human beings.

If you could categorically identify EVERY Labour council as being guilty of something similar Rotherham then you could say yes - but you can't.
 
If it isn't party political then why are the Labour party suspending its members?

Probably because the Labour Party were (and still are) in control of the local council.


Is Labour more prone to turning a blind eye to immoral acts due to appeasement of foreign cultural practises?

You're having a laugh. Just slip the tories a few quid and they'll have your granny chained up in a dungeon listening to Gary Barlow records. Rotherham's disgusting but it's not party political.

Dd's right.This is not a party political matter.

What happened there was disgusting.

But to seek to make political capital out of it, like this, is just cheap and ridiculous.

There seems to be little doubt that there was a "culture of denial" in Rotherham.

Let's see what comes out of the official investigation, before blaming multiculturism for what happened there.
 
Last edited:
This is the best thing I've read on the whole business. Not comfortable reading, but excellent nonetheless, from Janice Turner in The The Times...

It wasn’t political correctness but callousness that abandoned vulnerable children to the Rotherham sex abusers
Where did they go, the lost girls? The ones at primary school with grubby dresses and sudden rage. I’d see them in the seedy upper gallery of the shopping centre, talking with security guards or dodgy older boys. At school we stayed well clear: they were hard, reckless, love-bitten. I hadn’t seen one of them for years when, returning from university, I spied a cavernous-eyed woman in the bus station, pushing a toddler, looking 45.
Why did the Rotherham authorities do nothing, a TV reporter asked a mother whose daughter was sexually exploited from the age of 12. “Because”, she replied, “they thought they were dirty little slags.”
Of all the hand-wringing analysis this week, her words ring truest to me. I grew up in Doncaster, the next town, and the idea that Rotherham was convulsed by, as Eric Pickles puts it, “institutionalised political correctness” makes me smile. How to put it politely? The rough, plain-speaking South Yorkshire people in my family and community were never too scared to sound racist.
But what a useful, guilt-swerving excuse. Asked why you ignored 1,400 girls sexually abused by Pakistani Muslims, shoved under your nose in three major reports, it’s easy to blame mimsy leftie multiculturalism. It sounds a lot better than the truth: that you didn’t think these victims worthy of police time, council resources or upsetting Asian political allies; indeed you didn’t see these girls as victims of anything at all but their own feckless sexual desires.
Throughout this hellish, stone-lifting two years we have seen various models of sexual abuse: the Catholic church hush-up, the awe-exploiting celebrity and now a tight-knit ring of Muslim men operating in run-down northern towns. In every model, victims struggled to be seen as anything but low-life fantasists. If a Rotherham taxi service run, say, by ex-miners had groomed, raped and trafficked girls, would the drivers have been rounded up faster?
How did the police view these lost girls; tarted up beyond their years, rowdy, bawdy, wandering streets at 2am to drink and get into cars with men? As Professor Alexis Jay says in a report commissioned by Rotherham council, they saw “undesirables”, runaways, out-of-control teens, whose complaining parents couldn’t accept that their little girls had grown up. They saw little slags, the dirtiest of all, because they’d even go with “Pakis”.
They didn’t see children. Because some victims are less innocent than others. We agree that the very young must be protected from paedophiles. But what about post-pubescent girls, sexually active even if underage? The grotesque saying “old enough to bleed, old enough to butcher” has as much resonance in the poorer parts of Rotherham as in child-bride marrying, rural Pakistan.
How fragile is a 14-year-old girl, thrilled at her own sudden desirability, yearning for someone who sees her as special? The dumb risks she will take, the things she will believe and do in pursuit of that as yet blurry notion “love”. But the police did not see these children, traduced, threatened, lured slyly into ever grosser sexual acts, as worthy of protection. Even when parents had done half their job, followed an abductor’s taxi or tracked down a girl to a derelict house used for gang rape, they couldn’t be bothered to prosecute.
These girls, they concluded, had made a life-style choice. Many were viewed, according to Professor Jay, as child prostitutes, junior versions of the hardened hookers police see in the magistrates’ court. Which is what, thanks to police dereliction of duty, many will become. In Rotherham we see the well-spring of prostitution; whatever libertarians prefer to believe, it is an industry founded on abuse. Here prostitution statistics — that 75 per cent began as children, that 70 per cent were in care — are made abundant flesh.
Was Denis MacShane, the Rotherham MP at the time, inhibited, as he says, by being “a liberal leftie” or was he worried about unsettling his constituency party, having to put aside his expenses claims and unpack an irksome, stinking and bottomless can of worms?
Certainly it is incredible that Shaun Wright, the police and crime commissioner, and former head of Rotherham children’s services was unaware. Professor Jay details how in 2004, Risky Business, the upstanding project for sexually exploited girls, put together an exhaustive presentation: it detailed 319 cases, the taxi firms and takeaway joints, the names of known perpetrators. This was shown to 60 out of 63 councillors. Mr Wright, elected in 2000, almost certainly saw it.
When Andrew Norfolk, of The Times, first questioned him, Mr Wright’s reply was: “Why are you picking on Rotherham?” A complacent Labour council with an unassailable majority had no reason to grub for the votes of its more marginal citizens.
Besides, it is a desperately poor borough, struggling to pull itself out of post-industrial devastation. It devotes scarce resources to mainstream voters. Its police are very good at solving burglaries. It spends more than average on nurseries, Professor Jay notes, but much less on its vulnerable children. If you never acknowledge a monumental social problem, you don’t have to pay to solve it.
And why pull your town apart, imperil careers on solid trajectories towards £85K sinecures, why look into your darkest places, for a bunch of girls who should have been in bed. Let them live in the shadows, burn their lives, just as they did when I was 14. Who cares about the slags?
 
My original point is that tarring one political party due to the actions of Rotherham council is the same as saying that all Tories kept hush on the child abuse scandals that involved people like Saville - it's just not true. I may be anti-Tory policy but I'd like to think they're still human beings.

If you could categorically identify EVERY Labour council as being guilty of something similar Rotherham then you could say yes - but you can't.

Firstly Saville was popular throughout various governments being in power not just conservative, so not quite sure why Labour governments aren't just as much to blame for failures to bring him to book.

As far as my question goes, this is a Labour council not tory or lib dem or any other...so I can only apply it to them, no other council to the best of my knowledge are guilty at present of ignoring crime in favour of appeasement.
If you know of a tory / lib dem or any other council that appeased immoral acts / Crimes then name them, and they should be scrutinised as well.

Something went badly wrong in Rotherham, and that wrong comes down to a political ideal / Correctness.

The Human beings were the 1400 kids that suffered, because upsetting a section of a community was deemed more important than protecting them....ultimately all in the name of political correctness championed by Labour.

Don't forget it is only Labour that suspending it's members because of this.
 
Dd's right.This is not a party political matter.

What happened there was disgusting.

But to seek to make political capital out of it, like this, is just cheap and ridiculous.

There seems to be little doubt that there was a "culture of denial" in Rotherham.

Let's see what comes out of the official investigation, before blaming multiculturism for what happened in Rotherham.

DD's wrong as are you.

Of Course its a Party Political matter if not, why suspend members?

There was a culture of "inadequate scrutiny by councillors, institutionalised political correctness and covering-up of information and the failure to take action against gross misconduct.

I don't doubt that there were other failures in addition to this...Particularly when the Central Government at that time came up with the 'Every child matters' agenda which should have been Labours finest ever moment.

The impacts of the Riots in Bradford etc may have encouraged a softer approach towards certain communities.

The focus of looking after the newer members of community sometimes at the expense of the old.

All these will have played a part, but the most unforgivable is the fear of being perceived as racist or politically incorrect outweighed the importance of professionalism and in the case of the Councillors and lead professionals accountability.
 
This is the best thing I've read on the whole business. Not comfortable reading, but excellent nonetheless, from Janice Turner in The The Times...[

Interesting read James, not half as gritty but a pertinent insight into what went on from a different perspective;

There’s no getting away from it: Rotherham exposes the liberal-left’s moral vacuum

In The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl Popper quotes a passage from Hegel that shows how social ideologies can end up giving free rein to all sorts of bad behaviour.

Hegel says in it: “We may fairly establish the true principles of morality, or rather of social virtue, in opposition to false morality; for the History of the World occupies a higher ground than that morality which is personal in character – the conscience of individuals, their particular will and mode of action.”

Here we can see social virtue, or ‘social justice’ you might say, being consciously put up against personal morality and conscience, and beating it. Hegel’s true principles of morality trumped the false trivialities of people being good or bad to each other in real life.

The incredible failings of Rotherham Council and police in relation to the industrial-scale child sex abuse going on in that town show how such ideas are not mere fodder for dry debates in the fusty rooms of academia. They are rather having a huge impact on the way our public authorities manage us – and our most vulnerable people are sometimes bearing the brunt, as exposed in Professor Alexis Jay’s report.

In this case and others of similar abuse involving men of overwhelmingly Pakistani origin – as documented by Julie Bindel as far back as 2007 – public authorities have forsaken basic ethics and responsibilities to a dogma of diversity or multiculturalism conceived not as a basic fact of life but as a belief system.

This belief system, which is becoming more rather than less prevalent on the mainstream liberal-left, involves a specific favouritism towards people of ‘diverse’ backgrounds (non-white/immigrant) above those defined as non-diverse (white English/British).

In this way, diversity targets are set for public bodies and the Labour Party for example (with a desire to expand to private and voluntary sectors), public money gets spent (as Al Razi has pointed out, Rotherham spent £300,000 a year on a ‘diversity team’ in 2010) and a culture is established which discourages criticism and intervention against those seen as diverse. Normally the consequences are relatively benign (though sometimes corrosive for workplace morale). But the Rotherham case shows this attitude of protection and leniency towards those whose race is an issue can have dreadful consequences.

Take this from the Executive Summary of Professor Jay’s report:

“By far the majority of perpetrators were described as 'Asian' by victims, yet throughout the entire period, councillors did not engage directly with the Pakistani-heritage community to discuss how best they could jointly address the issue. Some councillors seemed to think it was a one-off problem, which they hoped would go away. Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.”

Rotherham social services’ culture actually seems to have been stuck in a sort of an extreme ideological hole, as can be seen from it banning a couple of UKIP members from fostering for apparently belonging to a "racist party".

But a report from the Rotherham Local Safeguarding Children Board back in December 2013 shows another troubling angle to the authorities’ attitude. It says:

“Both the media and public perception has been that Rotherham has failed to protect children involved in CSE or identified offenders and brought them to justice. Perception however is not always reality. It is now clear that CSE...is pervasive across the length and breadth of the country."
The explanation that they didn’t actually fail to protect these children because child sexual exploitation is happening elsewhere is clearly absurd. By saying it’s a wider national or societal issue they mean it’s beyond the responsibility of mere mortals, including themselves who are being paid and elected to be responsible for it in their area.

For Labour, which had been presiding as a virtual one-party state in Rotherham, the revelations from there and elsewhere will likely not have a disastrous effect at the ballot box next year. But they pose a big challenge to a party infrastructure, rulebook and culture that has institutionalised favouritism and wants to impose it much more widely on British public life. A minority or small majority Labour government will surely have serious problems implementing further ethnic favouritism, not least when we can see it contribute to such horrific circumstances for vulnerable young people who are not protected by these systems.

These practices also pose a philosophical problem for a party one of whose leaders, Harold Wilson, said, "is a moral crusade or it is nothing". For group rights without responsibilities means the end of morality: identity has trumped ethics.
 
Firstly Saville was popular throughout various governments being in power not just conservative, so not quite sure why Labour governments aren't just as much to blame for failures to bring him to book.

As far as my question goes, this is a Labour council not tory or lib dem or any other...so I can only apply it to them, no other council to the best of my knowledge are guilty at present of ignoring crime in favour of appeasement.
If you know of a tory / lib dem or any other council that appeased immoral acts / Crimes then name them, and they should be scrutinised as well.

Something went badly wrong in Rotherham, and that wrong comes down to a political ideal / Correctness.

The Human beings were the 1400 kids that suffered, because upsetting a section of a community was deemed more important than protecting them....ultimately all in the name of political correctness championed by Labour.

Don't forget it is only Labour that suspending it's members because of this.

Only one that springs to mind would be Neville Chamberlain. Slightly different situation though
 
In The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl Popper quotes a passage from Hegel that shows how social ideologies can end up giving free rein to all sorts of bad behaviour.

Hegel says in it:

Actually, none of the quotes from The Open Society and its Enemies (either in Vol 1 or 2) were from the original sources.They were all invented by Popper.

That explains why Popper was rightly accused of setting up people like Plato, Hegel and Marx, as so many Aunt Sally's, (exactly as you have done here).
 
Actually, none of the quotes from The Open Society and its Enemies (either in Vol 1 or 2) were from the original sources.They were all invented by Popper.

That explains why Popper was rightly accused of setting up people like Plato, Hegel and Marx, as so many Aunt Sally's, (exactly as you have done here).

Popper certainly did a hatchet job on Plato and Hegel, less so Marx, however the above wasn't written by me but by a left wing journalist who rather than be in denial, seeks to explore the impact of political correctness in today's society.

The bulk of the piece centres around Prof Jay's findings and it is those that you cannot ignore or seek to play down.
This extract should particularly sound alarm bells;

"Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.”

We cannot deal with a problem unless we recognize we have one, and that is - what is more important, the sensitivities of portions of our communities or those that suffer because we have embraced equality and diversity so readily and at the expense of others?

To date not in one but several LA's (not just Rotherham) the answer has been to sacrifice care and responsibilty rather than rock the multi cultural boat...even now it appears that there are some in in the Labour party and amongst its supporters that are so indoctrinated by an ideal that they refuse to have the debate.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/yp-comment/victims-failed-by-labour-1-6819202

Until such a time that they (Labour) are brave enough to question what they believe, you can expect similar stories to the Rotherham one to come out.
 
Last edited:

ShrimperZone Sponsors

FFM MSPFX Foreign Exchange Services
Estuary MFF2
Zone Advertisers Zone Advertisers

ShrimperZone - SUFC Player Sponsorship

Southend United Away Travel


All At Sea Fanzine


Back
Top