"'Defoe Or Not Defoe?' That is the question..."

[Rob Noxious]

...which Peter Drury posed earlier in his commentary on the England v Slovenia game. I'd like to see him start against Croatia - he's looking pretty lively and seems able to conjure goals from situations where nothing seems on. He linked well with Aaron Lennon for his goal today. I'm no Spurs fan, but I think they're both in fine form and should get the nod over Heskey and Wright-Phillips respectively. Maybe Fabio will play safe and opt for Emille. How about you?

 

[EastStandBlue]

Nope, keep the system that's working intact. Defoe is fine coming off the bench against tired legs, especially against teams like Slovenia or Andorra where the players tire quicker, but to get the most out of Rooney a player like Heskey is required to do the dirty work. His value to the team and tactic can't be overstated enough in my opinion...

 

[Rob Noxious]

Nope, keep the system that's working intact. Defoe is fine coming off the bench against tired legs, especially against teams like Slovenia or Andorra where the players tire quicker, but to get the most out of Rooney a player like Heskey is required to do the dirty work. His value to the team and tactic can't be overstated enough in my opinion...

I admire Heskey's selfless work too, a role he is used to from his erstwhile partnership with Michael Owen. Capello is a wily old soul though and I wonder if he might be employing some subterfuge before the Croatia game, lulling Bilic into the thought that it will be the tried-and-trusted target man up top for England? I have a sneaking suspicion that Defoe will get his chance by starting in this game, but if not then a useful option to have ready to utilise against tiring defenders in the second half. Talking of defenders, noticed that Croatia won't have Corluka playing for them following his red yesterday...

 

[Pubey]

Absolutely has to start. I love heskey (personally think C Cole is an upgrade) but I'd much rather see Englands most in form striker starting and making use of our midfield rather than seeing Johnson and terry trying to lump it up to heskrys bonce as he gets roughed up by the solid croatian defence. Theo showed that raw pace and skill will destroy Croatia

 

[Rob Noxious]

I know our forwards (with the exception of an in-form Rooney) are not world beaters, but it does feel a whole lot more encouraging to see the likes of Defoe and Carlton Cole pushing their claims. Crouch has been much-maligned in his time but he's a useful forward to have in the squad...and most of a season for Michael Owen to try to force his way back in too.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

[and most of a season for Michael Owen to try to force his way back in too.[/QUOTE]

Won't happen.My fiver is as safe as houses;)

 

[Rob Noxious]

[and most of a season for Michael Owen to try to force his way back in too.

Won't happen.My fiver is as safe as houses;)[/quote]

It's early days yet, chief...but my guess is that Fabs will take five forwards and I can't see him taking all three of Cole, Heskey and Crouch. I think Heskey may be the odd one out come next June, injuries notwithstanding. If Defoe keeps up his good form, then he'll be there. If Owen plays on a regular basis and gets goals for Man U, then I think he'll get the last forward place.* That way he'll have two options for the out and out goal poacher (Defoe & Owen), two options for the target man (Crouch and Cole) and the one option of the inimitable Rooney...

*...then again if Agbonlahor hits top form your fiver may well be safe!

 

[Slipperduke]

Nope. English players are incapable of going 90 minutes without resorting to long ball. We have to have a big man on the pitch. Drop Heskey by all means, but only for Crouch/Cole. If you want Defoe, you've got to drop Rooney and I'm not sure I'd want to do that.

 

[Pubey]

Nope. English players are incapable of going 90 minutes without resorting to long ball. We have to have a big man on the pitch. Drop Heskey by all means, but only for Crouch/Cole. If you want Defoe, you've got to drop Rooney and I'm not sure I'd want to do that.

isn't there a causality argument in there? I know players like Terry are used to having a big target man up front for their club, but if we removed it for England surely that would be for the greater good? We lump it up there because we're used to having a target man, and when players look up and see Crouch up front they automatically punt the ball up to him and expect it to stick. I reckon we'd be better both attacking a defensively if we learnt to use the ball, remove the pressure and build more intelligent attacks. I agree there have been times that without a target man we've looked lost, but our best period of play and Defoe's goal came in the 3rd quarter when it was Rooney and Defoe up front against Slovenia.

My other argument is this... you pick your players who are in form, and currently Defoe is the most in form English player, and if you want a target man then you go for Carlton Cole instead.

 

[Slipperduke]

isn't there a causality argument in there? I know players like Terry are used to having a big target man up front for their club, but if we removed it for England surely that would be for the greater good? We lump it up there because we're used to having a target man, and when players look up and see Crouch up front they automatically punt the ball up to him and expect it to stick. I reckon we'd be better both attacking a defensively if we learnt to use the ball, remove the pressure and build more intelligent attacks. I agree there have been times that without a target man we've looked lost, but our best period of play and Defoe's goal came in the 3rd quarter when it was Rooney and Defoe up front against Slovenia.

My other argument is this... you pick your players who are in form, and currently Defoe is the most in form English player, and if you want a target man then you go for Carlton Cole instead.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? The footage of Russia 2-1 England in 2007 suggests otherwise though. The image of Rooney and Owen scampering after long balls long into the night will haunt me for years.

I think that the 35 minutes after half-time on Saturday may have been the only occasion that Capello has played without a big man. Those 35mins, Defoe's strike aside, can best be described as 'meh'. As indeed can the whole game.

The question is, would you wait until the most important match of the last two year to ask England to break the dirty habit of a lifetime? If you would, you're a braver man than me.

 

[Pubey]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? The footage of Russia 2-1 England in 2007 suggests otherwise though. The image of Rooney and Owen scampering after long balls long into the night will haunt me for years.

I think that the 35 minutes after half-time on Saturday may have been the only occasion that Capello has played without a big man. Those 35mins, Defoe's strike aside, can best be described as 'meh'. As indeed can the whole game.

The question is, would you wait until the most important match of the last two year to ask England to break the dirty habit of a lifetime? If you would, you're a braver man than me.

true, in fact I seem to remember McLaren doing some suicidal changes before a fairly important Croatia game!

Hopefully we'll get the win, and then Capello has a couple of dead rubbers to experiment. I can see what Heskey brings to the party, and he's probably the safest bet to play alongside Rooney... however I feel sorry that Defoe is in the form of his life and looking like he'll score everytime he gets the ball, but then he has to make do being a super-sub. Heskey hasn't been great so far this season, and next summer he'll be 32. At some point we're going to need strikers to step up and fill his boots and so Defoe/Cole/Crouch need minutes and need to be trusted.

 

[EastStandBlue]

International Football, I think, is all about the familiarity within the team between the players and with the tactic employed by the coach... If your players can play together and with a set tactic they can obey, then that's half of the battle.

A Scottish mate of mine, What he can say about Football I don't know, couldn't believe the support Capello had recieved as he'd never seen us play glorious attacking football since his arrival. I don't know about any of you, but I'd rather Win Ugly than Lose Pretty and, when it comes to England in a major international competition, I really couldn't give a monkeys about the sanctity of Football.

I think Heskey is a necessity... I'm all for trying new things in friendlies, but not in an important qualifiers against the so called "New Enemy" that the press have dubbed Croatia.


EDIT: I'm growing tired of the same, perpetual coverage on Sky Sports News this morning stating how Defoe has scored 6 in 6 for England whilst Heskey has scored 2 in 8. I think it's only fair if you bring up a stat regarding how many headers Defoe has won in comparison to Heskey in a 'per game' ratio and how many Key Passes Heskey has made in comparison to Defoe.

 

[Pubey]

can't help but think this needs a poll on this thread. how about....

Striking options for match against Croatia:

Rooney alone
Rooney + Heskey
Rooney + Defoe
Rooney + Cole
something else

 

[Slipperduke]

EDIT: I'm growing tired of the same, perpetual coverage on Sky Sports News this morning stating how Defoe has scored 6 in 6 for England whilst Heskey has scored 2 in 8. I think it's only fair if you bring up a stat regarding how many headers Defoe has won in comparison to Heskey in a 'per game' ratio and how many Key Passes Heskey has made in comparison to Defoe.

Yeah, this ****ed me off too. It's like football for *******. Defoe's second against Holland was scuffed in from a yard out, but everyone forgets that after a while. Heskey's work in retaining the ball in the final third may not get him on the scoresheet, but it don't half help to create chances.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Play Heskey, he does so much good unnoticed work.
Lennon has to start too, although come the world cup I would be loathe to have him and Johnson down the right side as would leave us vulnerable to counter attack.
Wright-Phillips for me is one of the most overrated players in England. Would have Walcott and Lennon ahead of him.

 

[Rob Noxious]

Wright-Phillips for me is one of the most overrated players in England. Would have Walcott and Lennon ahead of him.

Now I know this might sound bizarre, but having thought (ridiculously early, I know) about the possible squad the other day, I think Fabs may take SWP as possible right back cover for Johnson. I recall him having SWP there as a sub in one of the friendlies earlier this year and there seems no decent RB alternative currently - unless you're thinking that Gary Neville will re-emerge or Luke Young fits the bill - so this seems to be another potential 'problem' position. I really can't think of any really decent RB cover* - and please don't mention Simon Francis! :)

ps a mate of mine mentioned Micah Richards, but he's gone so far off my radar I'd forgotten all about him. I don't think he's figured in any Fab squad as yet, though still makes the U-21s. Would be worried by his poor reading of the game personally.

* Noticed that Wes Brown was on the bench last night, another I'd forgotten all about...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Play Heskey, he does so much good unnoticed work.
Lennon has to start too, although come the world cup I would be loathe to have him and Johnson down the right side as would leave us vulnerable to counter attack.
Wright-Phillips for me is one of the most overrated players in England. Would have Walcott and Lennon ahead of him.

I'd start Becks on the right and use Lennon as a sub. His pace against tiring defences once the game has opened up will be highly valuable.

Shaun Wright-Phillips has no right to be in an international squad.

What's up with Walcott these days? He had a fairly useful game against the Cheating Croats last time.

 

[mattytheshrimper]

defoes got to start. always rated him. when he plays you will get goals. in the form of his life so why not put him in. he deserves it.

 

[sammyboy]

I would like to see us play with 3 strikers... defoe, rooney and cole with rooney playing the more defencive role of the 3 and have gerrard, lampard and barry in the middle.

Just to see something different.

 

[Rob Noxious]

What's up with Walcott these days? He had a fairly useful game against the Cheating Croats last time.

He picked up an injury - groin, IIRC - at the start of the season, which Wenger suggested arose from playing too much football in the Summer (ie Under -21 Tournament). Wenger argued that this led to him having an inadequate pre-season and made him susceptible to the injury. Latest reports are that he'll be fit by the w/e though...:whistling: