A bit of respect and perspective?

[ElstreeBlue]

So we got a great win last night. And Paul Sturrock has assembled a new squad of players in a relatively short period of time. And it's all different and new and there's some promise of what might be achieved. I also have a lot of regard for what Paul Sturrock has achieved as a manager at other clubs.

But these are really early days. Measuring someone over two competitive games compared to one of our best management teams ever over a much longer period for six and a half years (when there will always be highs and lows) is quite a difference. The way some people are hailing the new management as heroes when it's so early days with some comments belittling the previous management is astounding. What short memories some people have.

Let's not forget what happened in the Tilly & Brush era (not just one or two games):
* When they took over, we were heading out of the league. They stepped into a team with a losing mentality adrift at the bottom and immediately turned it around.
* They also got us to our first national cup final in that first season.
* They got us to our second ever national cup final in the following season.
* We nearly went up automatically, but somehow bounced back from the disappointment of missing out on the last day to win the play offs.
* We achieved successive promotions by winning the league the following year (including that famous double over Col Ewe).
* As expected, we went down from the Championship the following season, but along the way we had our best ever Cup run, missing out to an offside goal in the 115th minute at White Hart Lane, knocking out Man U along the way.
* Re-built and bounced back from the disappointment of relegation by getting to the play offs in the next season.
* In the following year, we had a small squad and had to make do with loan players and took us on a great run and just missed out on the play offs. Also gave Chelsea quite a scare with another result that's right up there in our history.
* Last year was the only season I'd call a "failure" but would put this down almost entirely to factors outside of their control - continued late payments, small squad, transfer embargoes, squeeze on ability to sign players, unhelpful official statements concerning the team, uncertainty concerning winding up hearings, players suddenly shipped out, bust-ups, players playing out of position or too soon after injury, loss of goalscorer and inability to properly replace him, loyal assistant dismissed. No wonder things appeared "stale" at times last season when all that had taken its toll!
* Unlike the dross we had witnessed in many years previously, some of the best passing and exciting football I've ever watched as an SUFC fan.
* A fighting and never-say-die attitude (again with the exception of last season for extenuating circumstances).
* Had some terrific and exciting players (not just Eastwood!) as a team was re-built a few times. Not all of the players signed turned out great, but there were plenty who were.
* Loyalty beyond the call when turning down moves that would have furthered Tilly's personal career when he was on the crest of a wave. Also not throwing in the towel (to his possible personal detriment) when so many others would have done with everything going on last season.
* Taking a club that had been consistently doing badly to one that suddenly believed in itself and had a real spirit around it.

T&B made some mistakes along the way, but who doesn't? We may also (rightly or wrongly) disagree with some of their decisions such as substitutes or tactics (I know I didn't always agree with everything they did), but they had their own methods that worked better than probably any of us on ShrimperZone if we'd put our necks on the line and had to manage our club. As SBH has recently said, they were the perfect match for us in so many ways.

This was achieved over a long period. What happened last year to them was an incredible burden to have to fight against and I'd challenge any management to have done better or to motivate the players more than they did in the circumstances or find the right formula given what they had to work with.

These are very very early days for the new management team. What would happen if they do well - will they leave to go to a bigger club? What would happen when (inevitably as any side does) we have a bad run? What happens if they are faced with anything like the same constraints and off the field issued as T&B had last year?

T&B are a very hard act to follow. It would be unfair on the new management and players to constantly compare them to that amazing era, but only after 6 years or after they have left can proper comparisons be made. Tilly may have not had the best media style or may have come across as too nice, but that style encouraged the players to play for him and he wasn't afraid to make changes or mix it up when that was needed. T&B were not as tactically naive as some make out either. They made changes when they needed to and did experiment with other formations. But remember another very successful manager in Webb also keeping things very simple with 4-4-2 so that the players at our level knew what they were supposed to be doing? Just sticking to the same formation does not mean that T&B didn't have a clue - just that that was their style of doing things.

I found the way that Tilly, Brush and the players were unceremoniously treated last year, culminating in the way they were despatched in the end was truly sickening. That was not what I wanted to be done in my name from OUR club. As much as I don't blame the new management team or the players and wish them the best, I'm struggling to generate any enthusiasm right now. I'm still absolutely gutted at the way such loyal servants of the club have been treated and I can't easily forget that. I hope that feeling will wear off. But in the meantime, I'd just ask for people to remember and have a little perspective and respect for what T&B and their teams achieved before they were dumped. It was a sustained period of truly magical years that don't come round very often.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

Excellent post and sums up the way quite a few people feel I would think.

 

[Beefy]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing and that works both ways. It's perfectly possible to praise the new management team for the job that they have done in difficult circumstances without that being a slight on the Tilson & Brush era.

Sturrock and Widdrington have got off to a good start and long may that continue. I'll always believe that getting rid of Tilson was a mistake but it's done, it's happened and bringing him up all the time isn't going to help Paul & Tommy to step out of his shadow.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing and that works both ways. It's perfectly possible to praise the new management team for the job that they have done in difficult circumstances without that being a slight on the Tilson & Brush era.

Completely agree. Having said that, on a discussion forum such as this drawing comparisons is reasonable and to some degree inevitable... people shouldn't be shot down for doing so IMO.

 

[Jedi Shrimper]

The King Is Dead. Long Live The King.

I don't think praising Paul Sturrock & TW means anyone is disrespecting Steve Tilson & Brushy. We're all perfectly aware of what Sir Steve acheived at the Hall and don't really need an asterixed list to remember what we had, I'll certainly never forget.

Tilly gave us some of the best times we've seen at the Hall, a loyal servant as player & manager no doubt. The manner in which he was removed from his position will always be a sour point in a long list of grievances over the last 12 months. However is that Sturrock's fault? No.

Sturrock has had a hell of a job to do, as difficult if not worse than when Tilly took over. A team with not only a losing mentality, but unpaid and with mutiny on their minds. He's had an incredibly short time to assemble an entire squad at a club whose reputation among the playing fraternity would have been in tatters. We've started off better than anyone could have expected, and for that he deserves every bit of credit he's getting.

 

[Fairport]

An excellent post by Elstree Blue, I agree almost word for word!

It will take me a long while to get over the fact that Tilly and Brush are here no longer and it is so frustrating to feel that Martin has had such an easy ride after all thats gone on.

In the meantime lets hope that we have success under the new regime, the team worked hard and got a good result last night. But we need to look at periods much longer than two games in order to start making comparisons. Tilly/Brush and Webby will be very, very hard acts to follow.

 

[Rob1920]

I don't think anyone will ever forget what T&B achieved, and they'll always be considered as legends here. No one is saying otherwise. people are bound to draw comparisons between Tilly & Sturrock, thats all part of discussing football on forums such as this. Trouble is we've all been starved of any good news for the best part of a year so people are bound to get excited at the first signs of positivity.

I know its not quite the same, but look at how Cloughy is thought of at Forest. They cheered him as they got relegated because his overall achievements far outweighed one relegation. He will allways be a god there, but how many of those cheering fans would have wanted him back in charge the following season? very few I'd say. Now I'm not saying Tilly was an alcoholic bung-taker, and I'd agree he had to work under impossible conditions last year. But sometimes, regardless of who is to blame, the situation demands a clean slate as the scars carried by those in place run too deep. Personally I believe thats where we found ourselves.

So, I'll always love Tilly (and the T&B partnership) as much as anyone else, and I'll never forget the good times and will allways be grateful to them for that. But it was time to close the book on that era and start a new one.

 

[canveyshrimper]

What I am surprised about (although I shouldn't be) is how short people's memories are. Barely a month ago there were demos at Roots Hall and people camped on Ron Martins lawn demanding he reinstate Tilly & get his arse out of the club. The same Ron Martin who has seen the club dragged hrough the courts with his ongoing battle with HMRC and other creditors. The same Ron Martin who by the simple expediency of not paying the players last season made Tilson's position at the club untenable. The same Ron Martin who also has avoided paying numerous others of the clubs suppliers. The same Ron Martin who on the pitch after our League 1 title winning season told us he'd never let us down. The same Ron Martin who did.

Still we've drawn our first league game and beaten Bristol City in the League Cup so everything must be alright. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it's very early days, and the Sainsbury's money will only go so far. Let's hope that Ron has saved his pennies and HMRC are paid on the nose before we find ourselves back in the High Court.

I am encouraged by the start we've made, and the fact that RM has been able to appoint a manager with the pedigree of Paul Sturrock, however I am not prepared to forgive nor forget what has happened to our club in the last year.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't think anyone will ever forget what T&B achieved, and they'll always be considered as legends here. No one is saying otherwise. people are bound to draw comparisons between Tilly & Sturrock, thats all part of discussing football on forums such as this. Trouble is we've all been starved of any good news for the best part of a year so people are bound to get excited at the first signs of positivity.

I know its not quite the same, but look at how Cloughy is thought of at Forest. They cheered him as they got relegated because his overall achievements far outweighed one relegation. He will allways be a god there, but how many of those cheering fans would have wanted him back in charge the following season? very few I'd say. Now I'm not saying Tilly was an alcoholic bung-taker, and I'd agree he had to work under impossible conditions last year. But sometimes, regardless of who is to blame, the situation demands a clean slate as the scars carried by those in place run too deep. Personally I believe thats where we found ourselves.

So, I'll always love Tilly (and the T&B partnership) as much as anyone else, and I'll never forget the good times and will allways be grateful to them for that. But it was time to close the book on that era and start a new one.

Well put Rob, that completely sums up my view.

 

[Cricko]

What I am surprised about (although I shouldn't be) is how short people's memories are. Barely a month ago there were demos at Roots Hall and people camped on Ron Martins lawn demanding he reinstate Tilly & get his arse out of the club. The same Ron Martin who has seen the club dragged hrough the courts with his ongoing battle with HMRC and other creditors. The same Ron Martin who by the simple expediency of not paying the players last season made Tilson's position at the club untenable. The same Ron Martin who also has avoided paying numerous others of the clubs suppliers. The same Ron Martin who on the pitch after our League 1 title winning season told us he'd never let us down. The same Ron Martin who did.

Still we've drawn our first league game and beaten Bristol City in the League Cup so everything must be alright. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it's very early days, and the Sainsbury's money will only go so far. Let's hope that Ron has saved his pennies and HMRC are paid on the nose before we find ourselves back in the High Court.

I am encouraged by the start we've made, and the fact that RM has been able to appoint a manager with the pedigree of Paul Sturrock, however I am not prepared to forgive nor forget what has happened to our club in the last year.

Top post H mate, exactly how I feel..:clap:

 

[Firestorm]

Tilly and Brush's successes are well known and have been well documented, I don't think anyone is disrespecting them.

but you only have to look back on the number of Tilson out posts of the last couple of years to see that RM was not alone in his view.
Also the primary reason given by most of the posters against getting rid of Tilly was the ability to get a better replacement without breaking the bank.

Whilst the way a number of club employees have been treated has been far from honourable, cuts had to be made and drastic cost cutting exercises very rarely get accomplished without upsetting someone.

Given the issues regarding players and management pay, etc I doubt whether anyone could have picked the squad / managerial staff motivation and morale back up sufficiently to get anything like a relegation avoiding squad this season , and I think the idea of an almost complete clear out and rebuild was probably the best option.

Business is hard, and as businesses go football is one of the harder, customers are probably the most vociferous, company results are scrutinised everywhere bi weekly and there are few business where the majority of the customers think they could do a better job in running it either.
Sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made and these will often be thrown back doused in emotional rhetoric by those who wish to score points.

 

[chapperzUK]

Thats a great post, but I would say that many were swept up in the emotions of last night. At the start of the season, we had a team that we didn't know and they didn't even know each other. We are a team that were on the down and tipped to have a relegation battle, but Sturrock has signed 17 players and made them gel and want to play for us. The fact that we beat Bristol City after the season we have just had was sensational.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

What I am surprised about (although I shouldn't be) is how short people's memories are. Barely a month ago there were demos at Roots Hall and people camped on Ron Martins lawn demanding he reinstate Tilly & get his arse out of the club. The same Ron Martin who has seen the club dragged hrough the courts with his ongoing battle with HMRC and other creditors. The same Ron Martin who by the simple expediency of not paying the players last season made Tilson's position at the club untenable. The same Ron Martin who also has avoided paying numerous others of the clubs suppliers. The same Ron Martin who on the pitch after our League 1 title winning season told us he'd never let us down. The same Ron Martin who did.

Still we've drawn our first league game and beaten Bristol City in the League Cup so everything must be alright. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it's very early days, and the Sainsbury's money will only go so far. Let's hope that Ron has saved his pennies and HMRC are paid on the nose before we find ourselves back in the High Court.

I am encouraged by the start we've made, and the fact that RM has been able to appoint a manager with the pedigree of Paul Sturrock, however I am not prepared to forgive nor forget what has happened to our club in the last year.

Whilst I agree with the majority of what you say Canvey, I do feel that those demonstrating outside the Hall may not necessarily be the same people as those whose posts on here indicate that they are most inclined to want to move on and look forward. They may share the sentiments of the demonstrators to a greater or lesser extent but accentuating the positive doesn't necessarily indicate a short memory - just an inclination to look forward (albeit cautiously) IMO.

 

[Beefy]

What I am surprised about (although I shouldn't be) is how short people's memories are. Barely a month ago there were demos at Roots Hall and people camped on Ron Martins lawn demanding he reinstate Tilly & get his arse out of the club. The same Ron Martin who has seen the club dragged hrough the courts with his ongoing battle with HMRC and other creditors. The same Ron Martin who by the simple expediency of not paying the players last season made Tilson's position at the club untenable. The same Ron Martin who also has avoided paying numerous others of the clubs suppliers. The same Ron Martin who on the pitch after our League 1 title winning season told us he'd never let us down. The same Ron Martin who did.

Still we've drawn our first league game and beaten Bristol City in the League Cup so everything must be alright. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it's very early days, and the Sainsbury's money will only go so far. Let's hope that Ron has saved his pennies and HMRC are paid on the nose before we find ourselves back in the High Court.

I am encouraged by the start we've made, and the fact that RM has been able to appoint a manager with the pedigree of Paul Sturrock, however I am not prepared to forgive nor forget what has happened to our club in the last year.

Are you not blurring the lines between the on-field and off-field situations? I thought this was a thread about the on-field position, which has nothing to do with protests, with Ron Martin and with HMRC.

If you want to talk about the off-field problems then that's fine. We are a business which has historically haemorraged cash and without a substantial cash injection were never likely to be able to pay our bills for as long as we were being owned by someone without the personal resources to pay our bills for us. Ron Martin has gone out and has kept us alive by the skin of our teeth for just long enough to get that cash injection in. Will it last forever? No, but hopefully he won't make the same mistakes next time and hopefully people's memories aren't so short next time we have a few poor results and the temptation is there to throw money at the team.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

I don't think praising Paul Sturrock & TW means anyone is disrespecting Steve Tilson & Brushy.

Some of the more vociferous wind-up merchants/keyboard warriors on here seem to be making a habit of doing such a thing though ;)

Top top post by Elstree Blue, guarantee it won't be long before certain factions try and outshout his genuine message above. Defintely post of the month material. I'm guessing so far I probably don't have enough opportunity to praise most of the above messages with rep...

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

An excellent post by Elstree Blue, I agree almost word for word!

It will take me a long while to get over the fact that Tilly and Brush are here no longer and it is so frustrating to feel that Martin has had such an easy ride after all thats gone on.

In the meantime lets hope that we have success under the new regime, the team worked hard and got a good result last night. But we need to look at periods much longer than two games in order to start making comparisons. Tilly/Brush and Webby will be very, very hard acts to follow.

Are you sure of that comment

 

[Gt Yarmouth Shrimper]

I don't think anyone will ever forget what T&B achieved, and they'll always be considered as legends here. No one is saying otherwise. people are bound to draw comparisons between Tilly & Sturrock, thats all part of discussing football on forums such as this. Trouble is we've all been starved of any good news for the best part of a year so people are bound to get excited at the first signs of positivity.

I know its not quite the same, but look at how Cloughy is thought of at Forest. They cheered him as they got relegated because his overall achievements far outweighed one relegation. He will allways be a god there, but how many of those cheering fans would have wanted him back in charge the following season? very few I'd say. Now I'm not saying Tilly was an alcoholic bung-taker, and I'd agree he had to work under impossible conditions last year. But sometimes, regardless of who is to blame, the situation demands a clean slate as the scars carried by those in place run too deep. Personally I believe thats where we found ourselves.

So, I'll always love Tilly (and the T&B partnership) as much as anyone else, and I'll never forget the good times and will allways be grateful to them for that. But it was time to close the book on that era and start a new one.

Excellent post Rob, my feelings in a nutshell

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Are you sure of that comment

Well, apart from a few half-hearted "Martin Out" chants that were shouted down by some of the ProRon camp on Saturday, I'd say yes, he most certainly has.

Club shop will soon be stocking SUFC branded rose-tinted spectacles & blinkers...I even heard a rumour they will be doing inflatable Ron Martin backsides so his adoring public can have their own ones to kiss!

 

[canveyshrimper]

Whilst I agree with the majority of what you say Canvey, I do feel that those demonstrating outside the Hall may not necessarily be the same people as those whose posts on here indicate that they are most inclined to want to move on and look forward. They may share the sentiments of the demonstrators to a greater or lesser extent but offering a forward-looking viewpoint doesn't necessarily indicate a short memory - just an inclination to look forward (albeit cautiously) IMO.

There has certainly been a few on here who attended demos outside the Hall, RM's house and also were encouraging other demos pre Derby IIRC on Facebook and on here. A good few of those seem to have forgotten their demands for RM to sell up. Yes we have a new management team, and yes we have a new squad of players, however and despite the club being given dispensation to sign players by the FL I think we still owe the PFA (and the Trust for that matter) and as such remain under embargo.

I have no issue with moving on, or looking forward we all have to do so in life, and after the promising start on the field I am slightly more hopeful about the future than I have been in a long while, however I'll remain cautious for the time being and see what the coming weeks & months bring.

 

[Beefy]

Well, apart from a few half-hearted "Martin Out" chants that were shouted down by some of the ProRon camp on Saturday, I'd say yes, he most certainly has.

Club shop will soon be stocking SUFC branded rose-tinted spectacles & blinkers...I even heard a rumour they will be doing inflatable Ron Martin backsides so his adoring public can have their own ones to kiss!

Absolutely pathetic.