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2017 General Election thread

Taken from a friend;
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Corbyn's vision of socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Corbyn's ideological plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for £ 's )something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

It could not be any simpler than that.

There are five morals to this story:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation
Accredited to Billy Guy

And that is why Socialism the likes of which Corbyn and his cronies idealize hasn't been a viable political alternative to Conservatism/corporate and personal capitalism since the 70's. Sooner or later you run out of other peoples money. As I've said before and the last 40 years are testament to it. Capitalism always wins and always will. Personal greed and personal wealth will always take precedent over the greater moral good. Teresa May is going a long way to throwing this election away and handing it to Corbyn by default but mark my words here and now, and a £100 donation to Shrimperzone if I'm wrong. If, God forbid, Corbyn wins this election both he and his party will be out on their socialist ears in four years time when the great British public realise that for all his talk, for all his and his parties promises and because of his ultimately outdated ideological ideas for change he'll have achieved absolutely diddly squat for the people that put their belief in him. The unions will love him. What's left of the manufacturing North will love him. Old die hard lefties will love him but, and here's the rub, the people that bring the wealth to this nation won't. And that will cost him dear.

Still, that's all hypothetical at this stage.

As Karl Marx said.-"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs." That ,of course,was his definition of Communism and not Socialism.

You will doubtless have noticed that there has been a crisis in capitalism since the worldwide economic crash of 2007/8.
 
As Karl Marx said.-"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs." That ,of course,was his definition of Communism and not Socialism.

You will doubtless have noticed that there has been a crisis in capitalism since the worldwide economic crash of 2007/8.

Crisis or not the unquenchable thirst for capitalism and consumerism has continued unabated in the west and will continue to do so.

Regardless of ones ability to pay for another's needs that ideal doesn't work in today's modern society and hasn't for many years. We are a greedy lot and you can't have all that we have and all we want in life and at the same time give it away to help others.
 
The immigration target that Ms May has had every year for 7 years and was again put into the 2017 manifesto - has now been shifted from: it will be below 100,000 by the end of this Parliament (i.e. 12 years to meet the promise), and has now been moved to 'that is our aim'. If a promise shifts to something they would like to happen - does that count as another U-turn or is it a manifesto downgrade?
Either way I can see a fair few ex UKIP voters questioning the switch to Tory.
 
The immigration target that Ms May has had every year for 7 years and was again put into the 2017 manifesto - has now been shifted from: it will be below 100,000 by the end of this Parliament (i.e. 12 years to meet the promise), and has now been moved to 'that is our aim'. If a promise shifts to something they would like to happen - does that count as another U-turn or is it a manifesto downgrade?
Either way I can see a fair few ex UKIP voters questioning the switch to Tory.

***. The very same promises were being made under Labour and Bliar for years and just like their promises May's will come to nothing. Just like the majority of all manifestos they are just words and a case of saying what you think the great British public want to hear. In reality, as has been proved by the last 40 years of changing governments very little changes. Everyone want's what's best for them and their family. Everyone wants to live that capitalistic dream whether they like to admit it or not.

Hypothetically speaking. you have £35k to spend of a new car. The choices are.

1. Spend £30k on the new car and give £5k to someone that's can't afford one himself
2. Spend the whole £35k on the car of your choice and sod the guy with bugger all.
3. Spend the £35k you've got and then put another £5k of extras on top because you want the latest it has to offer and sod the dept and the guy with nothing.

Some people do No3........Many people do No2.......No one does No1

That's the unfortunate reality we now all live in. It's a pretty poor example and not literal but I think makes my point. Do I agree with it. No, it's selfish, hubristic and does little to enhance society on a human level but do I embrace it? Hell yeah, Im a No2, just like millions and millions of others.
 
Crisis or not the unquenchable thirst for capitalism and consumerism has continued unabated in the west and will continue to do so.

Regardless of ones ability to pay for another's needs that ideal doesn't work in today's modern society and hasn't for many years. We are a greedy lot and you can't have all that we have and all we want in life and at the same time give it away to help others.

Recent evidence in Greece and France would suggest that this is not, in fact, the case.
 
***. The very same promises were being made under Labour and Bliar for years and just like their promises May's will come to nothing. Just like the majority of all manifestos they are just words and a case of saying what you think the great British public want to hear. In reality, as has been proved by the last 40 years of changing governments very little changes. Everyone want's what's best for them and their family. Everyone wants to live that capitalistic dream whether they like to admit it or not.

Hypothetically speaking. you have £35k to spend of a new car. The choices are.

1. Spend £30k on the new car and give £5k to someone that's can't afford one himself
2. Spend the whole £35k on the car of your choice and sod the guy with bugger all.
3. Spend the £35k you've got and then put another £5k of extras on top because you want the latest it has to offer and sod the dept and the guy with nothing.

Some people do No3........Many people do No2.......No one does No1

That's the unfortunate reality we now all live in. It's a pretty poor example and not literal but I think makes my point. Do I agree with it. No, it's selfish, hubristic and does little to enhance society on a human level but do I embrace it? Hell yeah, Im a No2, just like millions and millions of others.

The point is that May's government,like all Tory governments since 2010, has promised to reduce immigration to the "tens of thousands".Whether this is a "target" or merely an "ambition",it is unrealistic and therefore dishonest.
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40126706

David Davis on QT last night made it quite clear the Tories could not promise to achieve this figure within the next 5 year parliamentary term.

While Labour was certainly "relaxed" about immigration under Blair/Brown,no target figure was set under them nor is there one in Labour's 2017 manifesto.
 
Speak for yourself BB. Fortunately millions of others have a bit of empathy in them.

Oh come on. Yes we all like to give to charity and make ourselves feel better about ourselves but the bottom line is we are all in this to better ourselves and our loved ones, not others. That's the dream andSocialism can't fulfill that dream.
 
Recent evidence in Greece and France would suggest that this is not, in fact, the case.

Greece is the exception and so is France to some extent. You carry on believing in an outdated and ultimately unworkable idealistic utopia. This is 2017 not the 1970's no matter how much you wish it was.
 
Speak for yourself BB. Fortunately millions of others have a bit of empathy in them.

Empathy is one thing. Sacrificing aspects of your living standards and downgrading your financial position in life is another. As I've said before I know which side my breads buttered and what's going to continue to keep them buttered. Do I sleep comfortably at night? Damn right I do.
 
Then that's great. When people overtake you on the way up don't moan about it being unjust and immoral because that's what you've chosen.
Whoa, climb down grandad - what makes you think I'm going to start moaning about anything being unjust and immoral? People are overtaking me all the time, couldn't care less. I'm happy with my lot, and I have no desire for anything other than what I already have in life, other than a proper Labour government of course.
 
Oh come on. Yes we all like to give to charity and make ourselves feel better about ourselves but the bottom line is we are all in this to better ourselves and our loved ones, not others. That's the dream andSocialism can't fulfill that dream.

I don't need or want consumer crap or a £35K car. I'd like a fully functioning NHS, an education system that is free fom my daughter and that won't cripple her for life, I'd like her to be able to buy her own house and when I die, I'd like to pass on what I can to her.

Filling your life with consumer ***** that you don't really need maybe your dream BB - don't speak for us all.
 
Empathy is one thing. Sacrificing aspects of your living standards and downgrading your financial position in life is another. As I've said before I know which side my breads buttered and what's going to continue to keep them buttered. Do I sleep comfortably at night? Damn right I do.

Do me a favour. I'm not talking about breaking myself financially every month. I can afford a few extra quid a month taken out of my paypacket to help those who need it.
 
***. The very same promises were being made under Labour and Bliar for years and just like their promises May's will come to nothing. Just like the majority of all manifestos they are just words and a case of saying what you think the great British public want to hear. In reality, as has been proved by the last 40 years of changing governments very little changes. Everyone want's what's best for them and their family. Everyone wants to live that capitalistic dream whether they like to admit it or not.

Hypothetically speaking. you have £35k to spend of a new car. The choices are.

1. Spend £30k on the new car and give £5k to someone that's can't afford one himself
2. Spend the whole £35k on the car of your choice and sod the guy with bugger all.
3. Spend the £35k you've got and then put another £5k of extras on top because you want the latest it has to offer and sod the dept and the guy with nothing.

Some people do No3........Many people do No2.......No one does No1

That's the unfortunate reality we now all live in. It's a pretty poor example and not literal but I think makes my point. Do I agree with it. No, it's selfish, hubristic and does little to enhance society on a human level but do I embrace it? Hell yeah, Im a No2, just like millions and millions of others.
the point was that they keep making a very specific promise which they have no intention / way of keeping. Its not going to be brushed under the carpet because 'people seem to like capitalism'. Making the same unachievable promise every year should be questioned and highlighted.
 
I think that many of those who can't get their head around the concept of socialism can't tell the difference between equality of opportunity and 'you just want to give people free stuff'.
 
Greece is the exception and so is France to some extent. You carry on believing in an outdated and ultimately unworkable idealistic utopia. This is 2017 not the 1970's no matter how much you wish it was.

So any modern European state whose citizens chose to elect a social democratic government is an "exception" according to you.I imagine that also goes for Portugal,Sweden,Denmark,Norway etc (and possibly the UK next week)? :winking:

While it is clear that social democratic governments which were in power when the worldwide economic crisis hit after 2007/8 eg in the UK,Spain and France plus elsewhere, have since been punished by their respective electorates,that can hardly be taken as evidence that capitalism has overcome its own internal contradictions.
 
We're not talking about a democratic socialist though are we. We're talking about Corbyn. A hard left socialist who would quite happily see us back in the dark old days of the 70s. You cannot compare Corbyn to any other EU democratic socialist leader
 
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